1958 Outlaw Beetle Build

[Big_E_Deluxe]

[petrol punk]

What size tires are you planning on running? I have 175/55's on 5.5" Rivieras on my stock width '70 beam with drop spindles and adjusters. I have no rubbing issues and am very glad I kept the stock width beam. I think it looks much better not tucking the wheel in, and being able to fit a 3/4" swaybar helps a lot with handling
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36hp '56 European DeLuxe oval, '70 bug 1835cc dual 36DRLA, and a '98 4x4 5spd single cab Tacoma

[Big_E_Deluxe]

Latest project & refinement on the '58.....

I got lucky and found a matching set of 4 Lemmerz 356 wheels back in 2019 locally. They interested me because they are dated 11/58, and this lines up with the beetles '58 model year. Plus, the older 356 wheels are getting harder to find in good condition, not to mention a matching set. I finally got around to getting them cleaned up and painted properly.

My old wheels (dated '63) are going to a friend who is prepping his '53 Pre-A 356 for the La Carrera Panamericana race this year. So they are in good hands and will be used for the race, which is cool.

Here are some before and after shots of the new wheels....

Before, as purchased...

Sandblasted, ready for paint....

Fresh paint, Pirelli Cinturato CN36's remounted....

Mounted up on Max.....

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Erik

1958 VW Beetle - "Max": https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=
1959 VW Bus - "Hans" - Double Door Panel (sold): https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746927
2014 Porsche 991.1 Carrera S

[Artistic gearhead]

Stunning.

[henry roberts]

I think this deserves to be back at the top again.

It is still my favourite Vintage speed car.

[Big_E_Deluxe]

[Fishynos72]

Love this build, I'm here to learn

I'm curious to understand how the 356 components change the geometry and what advantages it offers
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Collector of all things Volkswagen, Hazet and Matra.

1972 1302
1973 type2a
1957 type11
2005 Caddy panel van
2006 Golf R32

[Big_E_Deluxe]

[henry roberts]

This looks interesting, will there be formula vee style negative camber king pins in the mix? Or is there neg camber built into the 356 spindles?

[Big_E_Deluxe]

[Fishynos72]

I recall something being different about 356 due to a different wheel base length of the 356.

I'm sure there's more science behind it than most people realize
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Collector of all things Volkswagen, Hazet and Matra.

1972 1302
1973 type2a
1957 type11
2005 Caddy panel van
2006 Golf R32

[Big_E_Deluxe]

Progress Report: Front Beam Project.....

My new beam will be stock width, so I wanted to consider a new sway bar setup. I don't like the fitment of the typical VW sway bay mounted with straps to the trailing arms. They never seem to fit very well. One option I was thinking about was to incorporate the Porsche 356 style sway bar onto a VW beam. This mod is also something that could have been done in the late 50-60's. Doing mods that are in the time period has always been a guideline on this build. Plus, the Porsche and Beetle share the same front beam width so they should be compatible. I've seen a couple of crud examples of this on a VW, so it's not a new idea, but I think we can do it better.

Here is a 356 sway bar and it's factory attachment points, indicated by red arrows....

First I needed to address how the sway bar to trailing arm connection would occur. The sway bar to beam connection will come later.

The connection needed to be like the factory did it, so their are 2 ways to do this.... Add mounting points to stock VW trailing arms or use 356 trailing arms that already have them. Both have their challenges, but I decided to take the 356 trailing arm route. Luckily, I was able to purchase a really nice set of 356 trailing arms at a great price, too good to pass up! So even if this idea didn't workout, I hadn't spent a fortune on them.

Example of 356 trailing arm with sway bar mounts....

Stock VW trailing arms (also used on Porsche 356 Pre-A. Pre-A did not have a sway bar).....

Now all we need to do is remove the added Porsche bearing sleeves. This will allow the original VW part to now again fit a VW beam. The bonus is, if they can be removed safely, there should be clean 0% wear metal underneath. The mounting points for the sway bar will remain and will work as intended with factory bushings, etc. Btw, the sway bar to be used will be by a Willhoit Auto Restoration 17.5mm bar: https://willhoit-auto-restoration.mybigcommerce.com/porsche-356-17-5mm-sport-sway-bar/

Here are my 356 trailing arms as purchased. Notice the sway bar mounts and Porsche added bearing sleeves. VW logo clearly visible.....

And here are the trailing arms with the sleeves removed...

I did not get pictures of the process to remove sleeves, sorry. Most of you will be curious about this process. I could not find any info on how to do this properly without damaging the metal or trailing arms themselves. But I was surprised when my friend told me he had done this once before, with success. I will post pictures if I can find them. A bearing press, a race remover + heat was used.

The shock bushings were removed and the treads cleaned up....

Here is the finished product after sandblasting and Scotch Brite, ready now for paint. My friend Pedro Campuzano did all the heavy lifting on this, thank you Sir!

Next step will be looking at the 356B spindles and a possible rebuild. Mock up the beam and then look at making mounts for the sway bar pivots on the VW beam.

more to come.....
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Erik

1958 VW Beetle - "Max": https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=
1959 VW Bus - "Hans" - Double Door Panel (sold): https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746927
2014 Porsche 991.1 Carrera S

[[email protected]]

Take notes for those also looking to do this there were differnt size sway bars ...porsche started using 15mm sway bars in 1955 preA ,porsche 356A,b had 15mm sway bars ..the 356 Carreras had 16mm sway bars and the c/ sc had 16mm sway bars from factory....they're were 19mm aftermarket sway bars made for the 356 some love / hate them ...willhoit make the 17.5 mm sway bars which seem to be so far the better choice from my research ...

[Alstrup]

I agree. Most of the aftermarket sway bars are too heavy for a street beetle. Eibach makes 15 mm sway bars for ball joint front ends, and that is a much better upgrade than the 19 mm most everyone else sells for regular street cars.
A 15- or 16 mm solution for the link pin front end would be a good thing.

Hmmm. Business opportunity... Maybe I should look into that
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993

[Big_E_Deluxe]

As mentioned above, I will be using the Willhoit 17.5mm bar. They make a complete kit which includes all the necessary bushings to fit the new larger bar.

Information from the Willhoit website:

"Fits all 356 models. Cold formed from chrome moly steel and hardened to 48 Rockwell just like the original bar, and then powder coated in satin black. Correct with tapered ends, and correct (but larger) clamps, for an authentic appearance. Complete 20% harder rubber bushings for a positive feel without the problems associated with poly bushings. Designed to improve street handling performance, and high speed stability, without compromising ride quality and originality.

The increase in stiffness is 85% for the 356 A/B (originally equipped with a 15mm bar) and 42% for the 356 C (originally equipped with a 16mm bar). Most aftermarket sway bars are not hardened. This reduces the cost but makes it necessary to use a larger bar to achieve the same rate.

The first 356's had no front sway bar. In order to reduce the oversteering characteristics of the car, Porsche began using a front sway bar in late 1955. This bar was 15mm in diameter, and continued until late 1963. With the 356C the bar was increased to 16mm.

To further reduce oversteer and wandering, especially at high speeds, we experimented with bars up to 19mm. We found the 17.5mm bar to be the perfect size. It reduces oversteer to a minimum, flattens the car in cornering, but doesn't dramatically change the characteristics of the 356.

We've sold hundreds of these kits to date!

The kit also includes the proper grease to use when installing the bar."

Link: https://willhoit-auto-restoration.mybigcommerce.com/porsche-356-17-5mm-sport-sway-bar/
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Erik

1958 VW Beetle - "Max": https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=
1959 VW Bus - "Hans" - Double Door Panel (sold): https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746927
2014 Porsche 991.1 Carrera S

[Fishynos72]

You know they're got good thinking behind that kit when they don't just throw off the shelf generic purple poly bushes into it, and Shout "race car!" While the vibration from the poly mounts rattles your teeth out.
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Collector of all things Volkswagen, Hazet and Matra.

1972 1302
1973 type2a
1957 type11
2005 Caddy panel van
2006 Golf R32

[puchfinnland]

what are the differences on the 356 knuckles and the vw knuckles?

how is the sway bar mounting coming along?
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ABYC marine master technician , EX European auto technician, new business- EASTCOASTWEST , custom work on campers, only systems, no mechanical

[Big_E_Deluxe]

[Big_E_Deluxe]

+70k views since November '23, what?


Progress update on front beam upgrade....

I recently did a test assemble of the beam to verify sway bar fitment. Things are lining up as expected. Next step is to get custom mounts fabricated, welded on to the bottom of each shock tower & bump stops removed. This is the next big push. Once mounts are installed, the beam will be stripped, cleaned up and powder coated. Note: You may be wondering about ground clearance... Mounts will be located as close to beam and CSP beam stiffeners as possible. The estimated location of this 356 sway bay will be very close to the current strap on VW sway bar. I'm not worried about it, since my beetle is not super low and there is still plenty of ground clearance.

Upon assembly, I realized the outer needle bearings and inner Delrin(?) bushings are crap on this beam. I've ordered some quality replacements. I was able to find some NOS VW/German outer needle bearings, they will be much better. Also I will be replacing the inner bushings with OEM style bushings. They will be reamed for a proper fit. No Delrin or urethane on this beam.

Sneak preview....

Rear suspension...

To compliment the front beam upgrades, I ordered a new pair of adjustable spring plates for the rear. I'm hoping the second time with adjustable spring plates is better then the last go around. They are a quality Porsche 356 upgrade, that I believe after much research, will fit. I've also ordered a few goodies from CSP to go along with it.

Updates soon....
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Erik

1958 VW Beetle - "Max": https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=
1959 VW Bus - "Hans" - Double Door Panel (sold): https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746927
2014 Porsche 991.1 Carrera S

[TXHCBeetle]

Very nice, I'm interested to hear how the handling improves
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In Progress:
1958 Beetle Sedan - L243 Diamond Gray
1967 Beetle Sedan - L456 Ruby Red