air cooled VW- NEGATIVE emission vehicle?

[bljones]

Energy gurus, I'd like to hear your thoughts.
With all the recent interest in lower emission/hybrid/electric/bio-fuel vehicles, I got to thinking- Can an argument be made that a 30-50 year old VW could be considered a negative emission vehicle? Before you scoff, hear me out-
In all the discussion about miles per gallon, little mention is made of the TOTAL "greenhouse gas" emissions of a new vehicle- the emissions from manufacturing raw materials, then fabricating the raw materials into parts, then assembling the parts, then transporting the finished parts to the assembly plant, then assembling those parts, then transporting the finished product to the show room. All of those sources of emissions, even before the car hits the road. then, add the emissions that come from manufacturing replacement parts, and the atmospheric impact of disposing of the vehicle at the end of it's expected lifespan.
Then, with people purchasing a new vehicle every four to five years, the whole cycle begins again for each buyer.
My theory is that even including the emissions from our admittedly less "green" vehicles, the TOTAL emissions resulting from ownership and operation of an aircooled VW over a 15 year period would be lower than that of a newlow/no emission new vehicle. Ergo, NEGATIVE emission. No manufacturing emissions, no freight emissions, only spare parts production and shipping emissions, and of course operation emissions.
Hmmmmm, i wonder if i can get a grant to study this?
_________________
OG JHC
Author of Original Rant #1
"It stingd itself to dead... now that is control on you"

2%

[79SuperVert]

So can I deduct the purchase price and maintenance costs of my beetle from my income taxes?

[coad]

You left out one important piece of the puzzle though. As a group we leak more oil than the Exxon Valdez.

No matter how green we are on the front end, that pretty much screws us overall. Although, you're right, the environmental impact in driving an existing car is token compared to the total cost of creating one.

Practical Classics (the UK auto mag) used to preach that 20 years ago and they made a pretty good case. Job loss was always the problem, but they had some interesting numbers about that as well. Basically their point was that all the auto workers would become auto mechanics and spend their days repairing old cars instead of building new ones-- the money would actually have more impact since the mechanics would have it instead of GM and Toyota. It would stay in the community. Sort of the Wal-mart vs the local retailers argument all over again.

[jeremyrockjock]

It wouldn't hurt my feelings if they stopped makeing so many new cars
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Why buy what you can build.
Step away from the fiberglass and no one gets hurt!!

[earthmuffin]

[Billet_Bus]

yeah

flippin'
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CTD Fabrication

[WharfRat]

wouldnt calling a vw "flippin cool" fall into the same karmic category of painting flames on a beetle?

[gt1953]

Just to kick around town and stuff short trip to work and back they are great...when it comes to trips on the interstate the firebird is what we use. and it to has the "flippin" factor built in.
_________________
Volkswagen: We tune what we drive.
Numbers Matching VW's are getting harder to find. Source out the most Stock vehicle and keep that way. You will be glad you did.

72 type 1
72 Squareback
({59 Euro bug, 62, 63, 67, 68, 69, 73 type ones 68 & 69 type two, 68 Ghia all sold})

[j.pickens]

Bljones,
You are absolutely correct.
Car recycling, in the form of extended use of vehicles over several times the normal 150000 mile auto lifespan, saves enormous amounts of energy.
_________________
Founder and Chairman Emeritus, ECMSAS
BBX BBXII and BBXXI Long Distance Award Winner

[WharfRat]

unless you use biodiesel.

[j.pickens]

[my59]

a few years ago I got into a discussion with a guy in NJ who was in charge of a "issue owners a credit toward a new car to get old cars off the road and crush them" program to save energy from the less fuel efficient cars (he worked for one of the big oil comapanies)

his opinion was that my VW was just the kind of car that they were targeting.

I argued along the lines of bljones and the guy couldnt go there- he couldnt get past the idea of making new 40mpg cars vs old 25 mpg cars that had already incurred their "energy debt"

The discussion deteriorated after I questioned his basic intelligence and ability to reason. I think the phrase "stupid moron" might have had something to do with it.
_________________
my59: Well son, my grandfather died before I got to drive it, so does that answer your question?
our79: sunroof bus w/camper interior and 2.0 FI
Other:'12 Jetta, '77 Benz 300D, and a 74 MG Midget.

[chabanais]

I think a VW Bus emits more crap out the back in 1,000 miles than a new car does in 100,000 miles or more.

Just take a new ULEV engine and put it in a Bus.
_________________
"I spud therefore I yam."

[Split Decision]

[j.pickens]

Not to mention the energy it took to make those hybrid batteries.
They are hellatiously energy-intensive to produce.
_________________
Founder and Chairman Emeritus, ECMSAS
BBX BBXII and BBXXI Long Distance Award Winner

[pyrOman]

[P-Dub]

I have used this argument when people claim that old cars create more polution. Also, look at Cuba. They have had to make due with the same cars for the past 45+ years. They may be 50% body filler and powered by Russian/Fiat motors, but it still looks like a '57 Chevy.

[WharfRat]

along these same lines, in the most recent scientific american i think it was, there was an article about how hydrogen fuel is not cleaner than a gas electric hybrid car because the hydrogen fuel would be produced largely by plants powered by dirty coal, etc. i just skimmed the article, but that ws the basic gist of it.

[jeremysmithatshawdotca]

The key for clean hydrogen would be to produce it from renewable enrgy (solar, wind, wave etc). Not really much point if you're getting it by burning coal!

[WharfRat]

regardless of their merits or lack thereof, much research is being done on alternative fuels for automobiles that can use renewable resources. is there, or is anyone working on an engine oil from a renewable resource? if we run out of petroleum, all the alternative fuel in the world wont matter if we cant lubricate our engines.