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Jon_slider
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2007
Posts: 5091
Location: Santa Cruz, Crowdifornia
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 Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:31 pm Post subject: Re: CA Grey Market Vehicle |
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| pretty_kitty wrote: |
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Re: VIN; I think the chassis VIN and dash match. As I understand it is the last digits that match from the dash to the chassis. Is that not your understanding?
The few items that concern me is
1) the VIN on the dash does not really match the rig. It is a "Y" when it should be a "W". Would the referee in CA know that deep into ready a VIN? |
I defer the answer to your first question to Kamz, I honestly know less than she does about that
To your second question, if the Vin on the vehicle title and the Vin on the Dash, and the Vin on the chassis all show the Y, then no, I dont think verification will say it should be a W.
otoh if chassis says W and title and dash says Y, then Yes, I would say Vin verification would catch a mismatch
I was able to register a ZZZ vin vehicle, a syncro originally sold in Canada, in California. I bought it from someone that had imported it into a part of New Mexico, that had no smog check, and registered it there. I bought it in New Mexico, and over 1 year later moved it to California. I would have had to pay California Sales Tax if I brought it in within less than 1 year of purchase.
The PO gave me a letter from VOA, that they received from the Canadian dealership that sold him the vehicle. The VOA letter satisfied DMV California that the vehicle complied with US federal standards.
The rules may have changed since I did that, and VOA letters are NLA. So If I was in your position, I would contact a registered importer, such as Jeff Schwaia http://autostadtwest.com and get his advice.
I would also contact a BAR Referee https://www.bar.ca.gov/Industry/Referee.html to learn what they will require in order to give the vehicle a bar code sticker to certify that the vehicle complies with CARB https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/homepage rules.
I dont think you need to contact CARB, just BAR. I dont think you need CHP to do a Vin Verification, just DMV. It is possible neither of them will check the chassis Vin, only the dash and title. At least in my experience, there was no chassis Vin verification on my Canadian import, they only looked at the dash plaque and the title, both of which had matching ZZZ vins, and all the other digits.
good luck with your research, I hope you managed to get through the red tape.
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MsTaboo
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 4087
Location: East Kootenay, British Columbia
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: CA Grey Market Vehicle |
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You may want to check with Autostadt West
They have lots of experience.
http://autostadtwest.com
Also, would love to see some photos of these vin plates and stamps.
(and the van!)
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32598
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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captcory
Samba Member
Joined: January 20, 2010
Posts: 101
Location: swfl
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:19 pm Post subject: Re: CA Grey Market Vehicle |
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| pretty_kitty wrote: |
1) the VIN on the dash does not really match the rig. It is a "Y" when it should be a "W". Would the referee in CA know that deep into ready a VIN?
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where does the OP state that the VIN doesn't match the title? did I miss something?
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kamzcab86
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Joined: July 26, 2008
Posts: 7918
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:19 pm Post subject: Re: CA Grey Market Vehicle |
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| pretty_kitty wrote: |
I believe it is an original panel van. The backside is clean and look original. The outside is also very nice and looks seamless. On top of that it has a bulkhead behind the front seats identical to other panels vans photos I have seen which makes me feel it is the real deal.
With all that being said the VIN should say W if it is a legit panel van not Y as is on the title legally registered out of state.
...the VIN on the dash does not really match the rig. It is a "Y" when it should be a "W". |
Okay, so... after two pages we finally get to the heart of the matter.
1) This is a panel pan, originally sold out of the country (indeed making it gray market), that has no emissions control devices, a slapped-on emissions decal in the wrong place, and no federal importation certification. Red flag #1.
2) The VIN on the dash shows a Y for the model type, which means it has a USA VIN, which matches the title. To my knowledge, Volkswagen did not sell panel vans here, thus this European (I presume) van has a USA dash, or a VIN plate swap (technically illegal) took place. As far as I know, all VW's left the factory with VIN/legalese decals on their front door jambs. Red flag #2. I'd honestly like to see a photo of the chassis VIN and dash VIN because something tells me, if this is a genuine factory-built panel van, they won't match, or one/both will show evidence of tampering if they do match.
I concur on contacting Autostadt West. They could answer your questions better than we could. If you really want this van, they could possibly do the federal certification if California requires it. As for the VIN, if the dash VIN matches the title, I don't think you'll have an issue with the DMV/CHP in that regard (the title will simply reflect it being a passenger van), but you'll want to ask someone in the know about that too (AAA titling office, DMV if you're up for it, etc.).
As for a digit being off on a title, I've encountered a few folks in the car world who have indeed had the misfortune in dealing with it thanks to inept DMV employees.
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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
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Jon_slider
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2007
Posts: 5091
Location: Santa Cruz, Crowdifornia
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: CA Grey Market Vehicle |
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| captcory wrote: |
| does the OP state that the VIN doesn't match the title? |
No, I do not think the OP said that
he did say the title shows a Y and the Dash shows a matching Y.
But they dont match the chassis W.
Soooo, the dash vin plate is not original to the chassis
and the Title vin does not match the chassis
So the question becomes
if dash and title vins match, and the vehicle is already registered in USA, will California verify the chassis vin? in my limited experience no, California did not verify the chassis vin on any of the 3 vehicles I moved here, that were previously registered out of state. One of them was a syncro w a ZZZ vin on the title, and dash (Ive never checked or been required to have verified, a chassis vin on any of my vans, nor other cars.)
next question
Does the vehicle have to pass California smog? Yes.
Will it pass?
Not in the current condition, but after adding a cat, maybe.
what would I do?
Email Autostadt West photos and ask for help.
There are legitimate reasons for a dash swap, maybe the old one was damaged. afaik, the Title is legit and California would accept that the vehicle has been previously properly registered in USA. And the verification of Vin would involve comparing the title to the dash only. No chassis vin check.. verify that assumption, If Im wrong, bad things could happen.
If I understand correctly that there is no ZZZ on the Title nor Dash, it is not a Grey Market Vehicle, it is a USA registered vehicle, and no need to have it certified by a registered importer. The fact the vehicle has US registration is golden. Whatever happened before that, was the responsibility of the state that registered it. California will respect the US registration, imo, and will simply require smog compliance, and sales tax on the purchase price.
I have a friend that had a Syncro legally registered in Texas with a ZZZ vin on the title and dash. A german had brought it to US and sold it after traveling. My friend moved to California and registered his vehicle without issues. Without involving CARB, nor BAR Referee, nor CHP. He took care of the whole thing at DMV. It is a diesel, so was smog exempt. There was no Registered importer involved.
just my opinions, not my money
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IdahoDoug
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Joined: June 12, 2010
Posts: 10248
Location: N. Idaho
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: CA Grey Market Vehicle |
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Kitty,
Wow - lot's happening since I tuned in. I don't understand your issue with the advice I gave, which is sound. However you found it disrespectful to repeat myself and that's fine - your prerogative.
I've read that several are recommending essentially the same thing - talk to someone local, and I have also taken my own advice as recently as 90 days ago. I wanted to buy a sweet project car in another state. It had a lien on the title from 15 years ago and nobody could reach the person. I spent a great deal of time trying to track people down. I called the other state's DMV to find out how to get around the red tape. The first guy said "no way, but thanks for calling." The second time I asked for a supervisor and that lady figured out a massive step by step sequence involving me getting a title there at a DMV office and then driving with that title to another office that offers "fast titling" for a fee. Get a new title there, and haul butt out of the state before things connect. Then get a title in my own home state. Lots of money, lots of time.
Finally, I went down to my local DMV and stood in line. I explained my problem to the nice lady. She looked at the pictures of the VIN, the weird title, looked up the vehicle in the federal registry, confirmed a few things, then went back in a file room to get a form. She handed it to me and said "get the seller to fill out this form and sign it, bring me a bill of sale and this form and I'll issue you a normal title." Done. Local knowledge. I had 100% certainty the car would be titled because I asked the person I'll be back in front of a few days later. There was zero uncertainty (and I hear yours, btw and I don't blame you) things would go pear shaped after I drove 700 miles to tow a car back.
That is the basis for my advice. You are thinking of spending thousands of dollars and you're hoping to meet the standards of a bunch of bureaucrats whose job on a routine task is to screw your life up, let alone handle a nonconforming situation that will take extra time for them. Why not get photos of the VIN and other plates and ask the bureaucrats your questions? That way you've done your absolute level best to remove uncertainty, right?
Pardon the inference - no slight was intended. Just straight up the best advice I've got for you, because you got on this forum and asked.
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pretty_kitty
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Joined: April 06, 2007
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:03 am Post subject: Re: CA Grey Market Vehicle |
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It is always heart wrenching to want something you cannot have, which I hope is not true as to the reason for posting on this board. Thank you all.
I will see about speaking to Autostadt West and report back to all.
P_K |
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nacradriver
Samba Member
Joined: January 15, 2009
Posts: 760
Location: Ventura, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:10 pm Post subject: Re: CA Grey Market Vehicle |
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| pretty_kitty wrote: |
It is always heart wrenching to want something you cannot have, which I hope is not true as to the reason for posting on this board. Thank you all.
I will see about speaking to Autostadt West and report back to all.
P_K |
Between the classifieds here, and craigslist there has to be at least 100 vans for sale that are already registered in CA.
What is so special about this van that wants you to subject yourself to the brick wall known as the CA DMV, CARB etc...
Just saying
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Jon_slider
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Joined: April 11, 2007
Posts: 5091
Location: Santa Cruz, Crowdifornia
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AZ Landshaper
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Joined: February 08, 2009
Posts: 1698
Location: The Old Pueblo
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:48 pm Post subject: Re: CA Grey Market Vehicle |
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If this search for an answer continues, You Pretty Kitty will be the new official on importing funky vehicles into the republic of cal.
12 mos from now you will be answering the Qs on Cali registration of bastard imports. And Ill still be here reading despite having no interest of ever importing anything into Cal (aside from my beach towel). 
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nacradriver
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Joined: January 15, 2009
Posts: 760
Location: Ventura, CA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:54 pm Post subject: Re: CA Grey Market Vehicle |
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Got it... might be a pretty cool van to have... and it may be easier to get it CA legal with a KEP Subi or a SAH 1.8T.
Or, he can always get a PO Box with one of those mail stop places in Nevada or Arizona and register the vehicle there.. Just make certain they allow for a street address and suite number, not a box number.
Sad that we have to find these work-a-rounds.
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Petra - 1985 Vanagon - 1985 to 1991
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pretty_kitty
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Joined: April 06, 2007
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:52 am Post subject: Re: CA Grey Market Vehicle |
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Update to all and a thank you for your input.
I am more educated about importing a van from out of state and glad that I had the forum here to help. This is a great resource for the folks like me that love our vans.
We did not buy the van we were looking at out of state as there was too much red tape to get it through CA rigors. It may have squeaked by but could have caught up with me.
A special thanks to Jon_slider for the recommendation to call Jeff. He ironically enough had the same style van we were looking to buy in CA legally registered for sale! Too boot it was complete mechanical resto. It is a beast and in awesome shape. This van may be one of a few in the state to have the dueling sliders which have already been beneficially. I was able to pick her up on Thursday. We still cannot believe we own two vans but they will be loved forever for the purpose of each.
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Jon_slider
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Joined: April 11, 2007
Posts: 5091
Location: Santa Cruz, Crowdifornia
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| Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:29 am Post subject: Re: CA Grey Market Vehicle |
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Oh my goodness!
That is one beautiful happy ending
congratulations!
inquiring minds want to know, how many knobs?
and, my plug for decoupling on dry pavement, just do it!
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MsTaboo
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Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 4087
Location: East Kootenay, British Columbia
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| Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:36 am Post subject: Re: CA Grey Market Vehicle |
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Nice looking van!
Glad Autostadt West was able to help you out.
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Currently:
'90 Syncro Westy 3 knob w/Zetec
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pretty_kitty
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Joined: April 06, 2007
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:40 am Post subject: Re: CA Grey Market Vehicle |
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Jeff is the bomb. She runs better than our 85 full camper. We kind of feel like we cheated the brown camper... 
It is a two knob and is a tank with the trail master set up that was installed. Maybe one day I will get the third knob as there is a small list growing to pimp it out.
We are still trying to name her. |
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Jon_slider
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bokonon42
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campism
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Posts: 4491
Location: Richmond VA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:25 pm Post subject: Re: CA Grey Market Vehicle |
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| Jon_slider wrote: |
| pretty_kitty wrote: |
| We are still trying to name her. |
Rosie the Riveter aka Betty Boop
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Rosie and Betty were not the same character, so not AKA. Betty portraying Rosie, maybe.
Actually, you might want to name your double-door van "JonJon_slider."
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Abscate
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Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22648
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:13 am Post subject: Re: CA Grey Market Vehicle |
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Are dueling sliders separated by 10 pacers?
Quite a story of paperwork and working the System, wow!
Obligatory vote cast to remove the teenage soft porn from a pro site like this. I no longer am silent about this stuff in society. Me, too.
Last edited by Abscate on Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:38 am; edited 1 time in total |
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