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Transmission Q - looking for ring + pinion opinions (long)
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jasonpap2002
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:24 pm    Post subject: Transmission Q - looking for ring + pinion opinions (long) Reply with quote

Hi,

Backstory: 1984 Vanagon Westfalia w/ 1999 Subaru ej25 normally aspirated engine. Rebuilt (by PO) transmission with maybe 25k on it (~10k PO, ~15k me). Transmission has limited slip + taller 3rd and 4th.

Condition: Last couple of thousand miles I've noticed an increase in whine, noticeably different b/w 2nd and 3rd (3rd much louder). Definitely transmission based (only whines on acceleration/load, not coast). I've owned the van for 5 years now and so can't recall how it was exactly when I bought it. But lets say either I am more sensitive now or it's louder. Probably the latter. I did read that the early weddle 3 and 4 gears are noted to be louder to gear tooth profile, etc. While I don't know I have weddle, I figure it is likely).

First step was to change transmission fluid to swepco 210 - no change. A decent amount of swarf on the magnet plug but no "big" pieces.

I then decided to pull the transmission and send it off. Well, while removing CV joints I found the passenger side axle outer c-clip was missing (or disintegrated), which allowed the axle shaft to slide up and kick the CV joint "plug" off, permitting transmission fluid to bath the inner passenger side CV joint. Figuring this was the likely culprit of the sounds, I bought a new set of Lobro joints + Swepco grease. Removed, repacked, reinstalled (new clips and plug) with new rockford boots. Unfortunately, the transmission sound did not diminish.

Drove on it for a two or three hundred more miles until I noticed a bit of clacking at the transmission while in neutral and moving the wheel. Can't be the CVs b/c they are brand new. Confirmed not the CVs by jacking up one wheel at a time and spinning them, both in gear and out. While in neutral, clacking. In gear, silent.

Figured this must be the transmission telling me it was going to give up the ghost. So I pulled the transmission this weekend (note: front wheels chocked and I shook the heck out of the van prior to climbing under + had two spare jack stands under at the same time + parking brake on).
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Looked at enough transmission threads on this site that my eyes are blurry... this one was specifically helpful:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

First thing I did was check swarf.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Considering I just changed the fluid and it has been 2-3 hundred miles, this wasn't good! But I did look at my ring and pinion and they look great to me (I know, hard to see the pinion, but I have a scope that I looked at it with and looks similar to ring):
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


First question: Ring and pinion look ok to you?

If so, it must be a bearing (hopefully) or a gear. I have a spare "stock" transmission with what looks like good ring + pinion that hopefully has good 3rd/4th too, which I will hope will be quieter.. I'm not a fan of the taller 3rd and 4th. I don't drive the van fast enough (or often enough) to be concerned about the slight gas mileage improvement (if any) and don't like the shift gap b/w 2nd and 3rd. Plus, if it's louder, I don't want it!

Spare transmission ring (dusty from garage):
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Second question: Do these numbers mean something to anyone? This is from the existing (non-spare) transmission (the one I just pulled that was in the van).
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Third question: Should I dismantle the spare transmission to pull the gears? Will likely go with SA oil plate + anything else that makes this stronger (including temperature sender). All advice welcome...

Last question: I noticed the transaxle output "joints" (what the inner CVs bolt to) have more play than my spare. Should they have any play?..

Thanks! I've always wanted to post gear profile photos, but ideally in more of an academic (vs. $rebuild) environment.

All thoughts appreciated.

~Jason
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gears
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Transmission Q - looking for ring + pinion opinions (long) Reply with quote

Jason, it sounds as though your pinion bearing is going south. The R&P may still be OK, but it's scuffing because of a sloppy bearing.

Those numbers are found on all OE ring gears. "44" means ideal pinion depth is 63.44mm.
"138" is a pairing number also found on the pinion.

I have a 2.5 in my tin top, and like the stock gearing. A lot of guys insist on taller gearing, but I travel from 4,000 ft to 7,000 feet quite often. If I lived in the flatlands, I'd probably go with a very slightly taller 4th .. like a .837 (new ratio) or .821 at the most.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Transmission Q - looking for ring + pinion opinions (long) Reply with quote

I am not seeing anything that would make me freak. I agree that it could be a pinion bearing going out.
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Transmission Q - looking for ring + pinion opinions (long) Reply with quote

jasonpap2002 wrote:
Considering I just changed the fluid and it has been 2-3 hundred miles, this wasn't good!


Sorry to hear of this, it's no fun at all especially at the beginning of Summer and travel time.

Your drainplug looks like its from a Smallcar bellhousing? Smallcar bellhousing retains 1/2 inch of dirty oil at the bottom of your trans; to pre-pollute your fresh oil with the worst of the worst heavy steel contaminants. Your trans probably did not generate that 2nd hairdo in 2-300 miles. The bottom of your trans is a superfund site, and will produce hairy magnets simply from the trash in-stock, for several oil changes.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here's the Smallcar compared to RJES for example.. Perhaps the MOST disappointing aspect is that the bellhousing is a brilliant solution that Smallcar could have been fixing since its inception ~11 years ago. But they just keep on pumping out transaxle killers year after year after year. But keep in mind the installer can easily fix this too, if they KNOW about it. It's such an easy fix.

Here's MackayManx 'repair' of the problem. Easy fix while the bellhousing is OFF.

Here's some other threads/posts about this problem. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8070175#8070175 https://www.thesamba.com/vw//forum/viewtopic.php?p=8359553#8359553

And doing this 'repair' to your brand new Smallcar bellhousing does not ensure ALL the trash drains out. Nor does a VW bellhousing drain all of the trash out. The steel is heavy, it settles to the trans floor.

Everyone who has a hairy magnet should do a "cheap-gear-oil" flush before putting in expensive oil because there is LOADS of trash on the trans that cannot make it out the drain in one go. It's a waste of money to spend ~$100 on oil to get 7-11% increased lubricity then pollute it immediately.

It could take several flushes to clean a non-maintained trans.

But a trans that whines, is fooked, no oil change can fix that. A whining trans is dead. A trans that's NOT whining, should be kept clean though, ESPECIALLY if you are putting double the HP thru it.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:27 am    Post subject: Re: Transmission Q - looking for ring + pinion opinions (long) Reply with quote

Did you check the backlash on the transaxle you pulled out? I would expect to hear a whine in all gears if the R and P had a wear or bearing problem not just some gears. Measuring backlash can tell you a lot about the condition of the pinion and differential bearings.
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jasonpap2002
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:02 am    Post subject: Re: Transmission Q - looking for ring + pinion opinions (long) Reply with quote

Wow - thank you Gears, Wildthings, Sodo, and MarkWard. Super helpful insight.

@Gears: Numbering makes sense, ty. Also agree on your feedback on the drivability of gearing dependent on location. While I live in Austin, Texas (relatively flat) we do travel to New Mexico and Colorado (Summer especially) and the stock gearing would be better all around. An overdrive is nice in concept, but with the Westy things can get heavy and overall you'd have to almost have a tailwind to comfortably maintain highway speeds in 4th. Transmission fluid temperature sensor will be huge help here.

Pinion bearing "feels" like it's the right answer.

@Wildthings: Appreciate your eyes on this - glad to hear pinion bearing also is your opinion.

@Sodo: Yep - smallcar bellhousing. Thank you for the insight on the swarf, agreed that it likely is coming from the pooling of oil that never gets drained. I will make the modification (great link, ty) and also future drains will include cheap oil first.

I'm starting to think transmission fluid change yearly isn't extreme.

Side note: would love to add an oil filter too, but not sure that this will happen this time around.

@Mark: Have not yet checked backlash and will do so. I did hear the whine *slightly* in 1st and 2nd, it was just much more noticeable in 3rd and 4th for whatever reason (even experimented with same road speed, etc.). Still may be worn gear issue, or gear design.

Plan is to inspect my spare transmission stock 3rd and 4th - if they are good, I will have them swapped back and remove the taller versions, regardless of condition (they should be good, have relatively low miles @ ~25k).

I was surprised to find the axle shaft mounts on the transaxle to have some play (as compared to my original spare). Maybe others are taxed as well.

Thanks again everyone, having your eyes really helps.

~Jason
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:40 am    Post subject: Re: Transmission Q - looking for ring + pinion opinions (long) Reply with quote

jasonpap2002 wrote:
I'm starting to think transmission fluid change yearly isn't extreme.


Doubling the HP that goes thru your trans, is already "extreme". The simple fact that everybody and his dog is doing it, doesn't make it a "normal mod" where you can refer to the Bentley service intervals (no oil change for 90,000 miles Shocked = drive it to its death).

Upping your maintenance game is a sensible for an extreme modification. Back in "the day" we used to ask "can the trans take it"? Of course it can, for awhile - a shorter "while" than if it was 82HP. The "while" gets even shorter when driven as the contamination compounds and your lubricant becomes a grinding paste that becomes more concentrated with every mile.

One of the simpler ways to monitor it is to put a drainplug magnet in the filler hole, that you can check easily. If there's metal on it, make decisions about changing the oil. How much metal? Who knows? If theres any metal in your lubricant, it's beneficial to remove it, but are you able and how often? I guess it depends on your level of hobby mechanikking, not everyone has the time. Very few can even get under the van at all, and very few actually even care anyway.

But as all the used trannies are pretty much "gone", and replacement parts either running out or skyrocketing in price, its starting to get more important. Shocked I'm doing the intense filtering, because I find it interesting and fun actually. But all the rebuilds that led me to this obsession were not fun... Evil or Very Mad
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'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
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Waldi
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:42 am    Post subject: Re: Transmission Q - looking for ring + pinion opinions (long) Reply with quote

Very easy to check your r+p bearing.
Put the kardan nose off, try to pull and push the pinion.
Tell us.

Edit:
my god Sodo
I am tied to reply on your oil paranoia.
Double hp is 224.

Edit2:
upps, 2wd, same procedure
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jasonpap2002
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:48 am    Post subject: Re: Transmission Q - looking for ring + pinion opinions (long) Reply with quote

Waldi wrote:
Very easy to check your r+p bearing.
Put the kardan nose off, try to pull and push the pinion.
Tell us.


Cool, I can do that. Thanks Waldi.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:12 am    Post subject: Re: Transmission Q - looking for ring + pinion opinions (long) Reply with quote

[quote/]One of the simpler ways to monitor it is to put a drainplug magnet in the filler hole, that you can check easily. If there's metal on it, make decisions about changing the oil. How much metal? Who knows? If theres any metal in your lubricant, it's beneficial to remove it, but are you able and how often? I guess it depends on your level of hobby mechanikking, not everyone has the time. Very few can even get under the van at all, and very few actually even care anyway.
[/quote]

Sodo was just reading through your filtering thread:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...oil+clutch

It's probably the best time for me to add filtering... will review options (have not made it through all pages yet).

~Jason
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:02 am    Post subject: Re: Transmission Q - looking for ring + pinion opinions (long) Reply with quote

Hi,

Pulled the first level of "nose" off of the transmission to take a look:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I see this smaller gear has a couple of pits, I don't know that these are in contact with other gear or matters at all.
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Question: I am not sure which to "push/pull" - seems that I need to dig down one more layer to get to the real action. Should I remove the next set of bolts (and the nose)?

I have not yet measured backlash. Not sure if my dismantling is removing clues for the rebuilder - probably not...

Oh, and yes I need to complete the smallcar housing modification:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Thanks!

~Jason
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:21 am    Post subject: Re: Transmission Q - looking for ring + pinion opinions (long) Reply with quote

You are looking at reverse gear. In general reverse gears last ‘awhile’. Suby engine is rough on 4th gear and the mainshaft bearing cuz you tend to drive 75mph for long periods.

Check radial slop on upper bearing. Thats the mainshaft bearing. The lower shaft is the Pinion shaft. Try to push/pull that and see if any axial slop. The pinion bearing is a tapered roller bearing similar to whats on your front wheel spindles.
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'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Transmission Q - looking for ring + pinion opinions (long) Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:

Check radial slop on upper bearing. Thats the mainshaft bearing. The lower shaft is the Pinion shaft. Try to push/pull that and see if any axial slop. The pinion bearing is a tapered roller bearing similar to whats on your front wheel spindles.


No radial play on either bearings that I can discern. Some axial "play" on the mainshaft bearing but you didn't ask for that so I assume that this is normal. Plus the bearing itself shifts with the shaft, not just the shaft, if you get my drift.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So - seems indicative so far of a ~25k mile rebuilt transmission.. Not sure where the hair-do is coming from (and the gear sounds). But time will tell from the rebuilder.

Thank you all for your help, feel like I am going into this with my eyes more open...

~Jason
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Transmission Q - looking for ring + pinion opinions (long) Reply with quote

This does NOT look like a transaxle that was rebuilt 25K ago. The wear in the nosecone indicates that the mainshaft is slopping forward and aftward. The same is probably true of the pinion shaft.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Transmission Q - looking for ring + pinion opinions (long) Reply with quote

gears wrote:
This does NOT look like a transaxle that was rebuilt 25K ago. The wear in the nosecone indicates that the mainshaft is slopping forward and aftward. The same is probably true of the pinion shaft.


Now thats interesting! I wouldn't have caught that. Thank you.

Is there some possibility that those marks were prior to the rebuild? (I just checked and they look "fresh" however).

Makes me think I should open up my spare and if clean, send that nose.

OR, have my spare rebuilt possibly instead! The only thing is that I wanted to keep the limited slip.. (I was told it has one, it appears to but I don't know for sure - ).
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Transmission Q - looking for ring + pinion opinions (long) Reply with quote

Going back to your opening post, the Peloquin TBD is shown in photos #3-5. Photos #4 & 5 may show scuffing, but it really is difficult to tell from photos. Like Waldi said, installing a dial indicator on the end of the shaft and pushing forward on the pinion would quickly tell you if the bearing has gone south.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:25 am    Post subject: Re: Transmission Q - looking for ring + pinion opinions (long) Reply with quote

A few more photos for those interested.

If I tilt the transmission slightly "nose down", I can push on main shaft and get it to axially deflect enough to hear a "snap". Very hard to capture by camera, we are talking maybe 1/3 millimeter.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I can also push axially on the mainshaft bearing and can get the shaft + bearing to move out about 1/2 millimeter. Hard to capture on camera. Sodo this must be what caused the grind on the nose cap I pulled off. The bearing itself is pushing out slightly (prob under load).
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Finally, here are closeup of the ring on the just removed transmission. I see wear marks on the tooth face (can't feel with fingernail) and some other corner abrasions.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


My spare transmission ring appears better, but still some wear on the tooth face where it engages with pinion.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Finally, I reviewed the pinion on the spare transmission and found that 3 of the teeth have small notches at the apex of the curve.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I'm hopeful that the 3rd and 4th in my spare transmission and possibly the ring and pinion are salvageable.

I don't know how much wear is acceptable risk.

Cheers,

~Jason


Last edited by jasonpap2002 on Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:53 pm; edited 3 times in total
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jasonpap2002
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:28 am    Post subject: Re: Transmission Q - looking for ring + pinion opinions (long) Reply with quote

Also, I am not sure how to measure backlash without proper tools. I have a micrometer but not a dial indicator.

Going to go out and clean off the transmission that just came out of van and then build a box to ship it in (bought plastic containers already, now to build the custom frame to protect input shaft and shift linkage shaft.).

Thanks again!

~Jason
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:41 am    Post subject: Re: Transmission Q - looking for ring + pinion opinions (long) Reply with quote

It looks even more as though your R&P set is scuffed. This would be because of a worn out pinion bearing.

Those particular marks on the spare pinion were likely there when it was new (machine marks, not wear marks).

The mainshaft ball bearing bore is wallowed out, which is typical of a worn out transaxle.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Transmission Q - looking for ring + pinion opinions (long) Reply with quote

gears wrote:
It looks even more as though your R&P set is scuffed. This would be because of a worn out pinion bearing.

Those particular marks on the spare pinion were likely there when it was new (machine marks, not wear marks).

The mainshaft ball bearing bore is wallowed out, which is typical of a worn out transaxle.


Makes sense. This may wind up being 2 transmissions becoming 1. If the ring/pinion are ok in the spare, may also be that the core is better too.

My original thought was to have the existing transmission (with larger 3 and 4 gears + pelloquin) rebuilt, and possibly use the 3 and 4 from my spare.

I may instead send my spare out for rebuild, and then have them install the peloquin into it. In this way I get my standard gear ratios back.

Only thing is that the peloquin doesn't seem like it is straightforward to remove. Will search!

Thanks again..

Jason
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