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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
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Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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 Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:42 am Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain |
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| Warren wrote: |
Update - Seems my thermostat stuck which caused the cooking - Tested fine 2500 miles ago - I will never have one of those on an aircooled VW again...  |
Which type of thermostat? The OG ones fail open, the Mexi ones fail closed.
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24732
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:53 am Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain |
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| Pruneman99 wrote: |
I agree about load. Running up a hill at 50-55 in thrid is way better than throwing it in 4th and lugging that sucker up. That puts way more stress on the engine than the higher rpms IMO.
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Load and lugging are definitely part of the equation, and better to just shift down into third instead of lugging in fourth at below 2,000 RPM, but just running anything much higher than 3,000 RPM and you still get too high of oil temp.
When we finally put temp gauge on the big bore 40 HP engine going through the Siskiyous Mountains on N. Cal, was getting up to 280 F in third at about 3,800 RPM.
Even after installing the 1641 cc SP and adding type 4 cooler, 356 Porsche gen pulley and making sure we had DH crank pulley and widest cooling fan VW made, the oil temp climbs rapidly at RPMs over 3,000 on a nice warm day on a flat road.
Thus our recommendation, get oil temp and pressure gauges. That has been an eye opener and even saved us from five or more sudden need to rebuild an engine situations.
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Last edited by Eric&Barb on Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Warren
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Joined: January 28, 2004
Posts: 121
Location: Pine Valley, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:02 am Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain |
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| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| Warren wrote: |
| Update - Seems my thermostat stuck which caused the cooking - Tested fine 2500 miles ago - I will never have one of those on an aircooled VW again... |
Which type of thermostat? The OG ones fail open, the Mexi ones fail closed. |
Don't know but it's been on there since 2001.
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Warren in San Diego
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24732
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:04 am Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain |
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| Warren wrote: |
| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| Warren wrote: |
| Update - Seems my thermostat stuck which caused the cooking - Tested fine 2500 miles ago - I will never have one of those on an aircooled VW again... |
Which type of thermostat? The OG ones fail open, the Mexi ones fail closed. |
Don't know but it's been on there since 2001. |
Image of such would help.
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Warren
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Joined: January 28, 2004
Posts: 121
Location: Pine Valley, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:07 am Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain |
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| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| Warren wrote: |
| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| Warren wrote: |
| Update - Seems my thermostat stuck which caused the cooking - Tested fine 2500 miles ago - I will never have one of those on an aircooled VW again... |
Which type of thermostat? The OG ones fail open, the Mexi ones fail closed. |
Don't know but it's been on there since 2001. |
Image of such would help. |
Looks like this one.
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Warren in San Diego
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24732
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:13 am Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain |
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How did it fail to open the flaps?? That is the older OG one that should have opened the flaps when it did fail.
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Warren
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Joined: January 28, 2004
Posts: 121
Location: Pine Valley, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:18 am Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain |
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| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| How did it fail to open the flaps?? That is the older OG one that should have opened the flaps when it did fail. |
It does not expand when placed in hot water so somehow it is frozen up internally. Flaps/rod work fine and they have good spring tension.
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bluebus86
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:03 pm Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain |
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| Warren wrote: |
| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| How did it fail to open the flaps?? That is the older OG one that should have opened the flaps when it did fail. |
It does not expand when placed in hot water so somehow it is frozen up internally. Flaps/rod work fine and they have good spring tension. |
seems to me if the bellows is stalling contracted, something is jammed in the mechanism. The mechanism is also spring loaded to be open. the bellows thermostat pulls the flaps closed. If bellows fails, ie leaks, it expands, because when new it has a partial vacuum in it keeping it compressed.
Literally tens of millions of Bug and other VW aircooled cars, and even Porsches have a bellows operated flaps system for aircooled warm up with trouble free operation.
I strongly urge you to fix what is jammed in yours, and restore its operation.
Heck I have a Triumph that had its water thermostat fail closed, overheated the engine. Rather than toss out the thermostat and suffer slow warm ups, increased engine wear, decreased fuel economy, etc... I installed a new thermostat.
As stated prior, get a bellows type, NOT the mexican wax filled type. Bellows will fail open, wax will fail closed.
make sure all your flaps swing freely, push rod from bellows is not binding, all clips in place, and springs attached to open flaps automatically.
Doing so will assure best engine life and economy. The stock bellows type warm up system is a well engineered system, reliable, effective.
Would you run a Chevy or Toyota, or maybe a Ferrari, or Mack Truck without the thermostat?
Keep Buggin, With Proper Engine Warm Up!
PS bellows in the photograph appears to be fine, not fully expanded as it would if fully hot or failed with leak. But if it dont work, it dont work, replace it.
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24732
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain |
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| Warren wrote: |
| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| How did it fail to open the flaps?? That is the older OG one that should have opened the flaps when it did fail. |
It does not expand when placed in hot water so somehow it is frozen up internally. Flaps/rod work fine and they have good spring tension. |
When over heated enough that type can let out the alcohol from inside or of course if a hole got worn thru the brass bellows. Probably your's is expanded enough to pretty much fill the bracket it sits in? If so that is all it need to expand to open up the flaps.
Can you squeeze it shorter easily with your fingers??
Here is a thread about one that went bad, but it still opened up the flaps.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=697872&highlight=thermostat
Even if the thermostat did go bad and caused all the damage, having an oil temp gauge could have helped you catch the problem before needing to rebuild the engine. So maybe you should invest in some gauges and get a new thermostat since it does help with the longevity of the engine and have it run better..
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Warren
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Joined: January 28, 2004
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Location: Pine Valley, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain |
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Yes it is interesting because the rod spring and flaps work fine and it is stuck in the cold position.
Apparently in my calling around most engine builders here in the southwest toss the thermostat - LOL
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Warren in San Diego
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Eric&Barb
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Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:34 pm Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain |
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| Warren wrote: |
| Apparently in my calling around most engine builders here in the southwest toss the thermostat - LOL |
Yes, but one must keep in mind that as long as the engine lasts three or four times longer than the shop guarantee they are doing great. If you get say ten to fifteen times the guarantee, the shop makes nothing off of you as a returning customer, and might having not enough business to stay open if everyone did that.
Decades ago helped a friend install a Bernie Bergman built long block. It had one of the oil pump/filters on it, which was great. Tried to install the stock muffler, and the filter interfered with the heat riser pipe on the front left of the muffler. Called Bernie to see if he had a solution to keep the filter, and his response was "So what?". Maybe we caught him on a bad day, but even then he had no real incentive to help us. So installed a stock pump. Instead of using a shorter filter or modifying the cover neck to angle the filter out of the way or buying the stock type muffler with the heat riser pipe on the right side, all things we have figured out or others have come up with solutions to this problem.
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Warren
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Location: Pine Valley, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:56 pm Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain |
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| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| Warren wrote: |
| Apparently in my calling around most engine builders here in the southwest toss the thermostat - LOL |
Yes, but one must keep in mind that as long as the engine lasts three or four times longer than the shop guarantee they are doing great. If you get say ten to fifteen times the guarantee, the shop makes nothing off of you as a returning customer, and might having not enough business to stay open if everyone did that. |
True but I do have the benefit of a shop that has been here since the 70's so it's hard not to trust their sage advice for this region while hearing tales of all the fried engines they've replaced due to the thermostat/rod malfunctioning. :\
My old '66 didn't even have the flaps and it lasted almost 150k with one valve job so I am tempted to leave it off - Probably would not have fared well in cold temps like that but around here where the lows rarely get in the mid-high 40's it just didn't seem to matter. I don't know... I'm in analysis paralysis... :\
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Cusser
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Joined: October 02, 2006
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain |
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| Warren wrote: |
| Apparently in my calling around most engine builders here in the southwest toss the thermostat - LOL |
I have my two VWs in Phoenix (1835cc 1971) and near Prescott AZ (1600cc 1970), and neither has thermostat or flaps. With San Diego's weather, think you could likely ditch them too.
I do understand that technically an operational thermostat on ANY vehicle gets it to optimum temperature faster, so better operation and less wear. But "how much" less wear would one get v. risking overheat as you had???
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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bluebus86
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:29 pm Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain |
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| Cusser wrote: |
| Warren wrote: |
| Apparently in my calling around most engine builders here in the southwest toss the thermostat - LOL |
I have my two VWs in Phoenix (1835cc 1971) and near Prescott AZ (1600cc 1970), and neither has thermostat or flaps. With San Diego's weather, think you could likely ditch them too.
I do understand that technically an operational thermostat on ANY vehicle gets it to optimum temperature faster, so better operation and less wear. But "how much" less wear would one get v. risking overheat as you had??? |
But millions of Bug have never had an overheat, much less because of a warm up system failure (Mexican wax thermostat systems excluded) A failure can happen in a conventional water cooled system too, yet again millions work fine for the life of the car.
I got 377K miles on mine, always had warm up system, never failed to cool ever.
Nothing fancy, something is wrong on a system that is not working. bent or missing parts, aftermarket tins, etc... If your system has working flaps, spring loaded to go full cool, and they operate correctly with thermostat bellows unconnected, then the issue is in the bellows, or its linkage once attached. It should not be too difficult to trouble shoot
Are you running now with flaps installed, and simply have the bellows unscrewed? Push rod intact or removed?
Lets get this diagnosed, so you can have a functional system.
Bug On, Warm and snug as a bug!
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Warren
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Joined: January 28, 2004
Posts: 121
Location: Pine Valley, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain |
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[quote="bluebus86"]
| Cusser wrote: |
| Warren wrote: |
| Apparently in my calling around most engine builders here in the southwest toss the thermostat - LOL |
Are you running now with flaps installed, and simply have the bellows unscrewed? Push rod intact or removed?
Lets get this diagnosed, so you can have a functional system.
Bug On, Warm and snug as a bug! |
He's still in the shop getting a new long block installed. 
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Warren in San Diego
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scdevon
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Location: Rockies
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:07 pm Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain |
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| Warren wrote: |
It does not expand when placed in hot water so somehow it is frozen up internally. Flaps/rod work fine and they have good spring tension. |
I believe you, but something seems off here. A bellows thermostat just isn't designed that way. They are spring loaded open. If the alcohol inside is gone, so is the vacuum and it's still spring loaded open. The upward spring tension is quite strong too even with a few damaged bellows once the vacuum is gone.
Maybe you could spend some time and do an autopsy on that thermostat and let us know more about why it heats up, yet doesn't expand. The German ones were bog simple and (reasonably) failsafe for open flaps mode.
I never even heard of a bellows thermostat doing what you are describing and I'm curious.
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meranda
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:54 am Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain |
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| When I worked for a German VW mechanic in the 60s and 70s we always pulled out the thermostats as a matter of course. This is in Australia where it gets hot too! |
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bluebus86
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:40 am Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain |
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| meranda wrote: |
| When I worked for a German VW mechanic in the 60s and 70s we always pulled out the thermostats as a matter of course. This is in Australia where it gets hot too! |
Does it never get cold there? Is the ambient air temp hotter than the warmed up cylinder head? If not, then removal of the thermostat is not advised, infact it is idiotic.
Bug On
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scdevon
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Location: Rockies
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:03 pm Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain |
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I run a stock thermostat and flaps setup because I live in the north. Even if I lived in the desert and thought about tossing the thermostat, I'd still keep the flaps and tack weld the flaps full open. Yes, I know people have good luck running neither the thermostat or the flaps, but the heads starve for airflow without them. The jugs run too cold and the heads run too hot without them.
You can see how the airflow is aimed at the heads with the flaps and priority is given to the heads.
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bluebus86
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:24 pm Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain |
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| scdevon wrote: |
I run a stock thermostat and flaps setup because I live in the north. Even if I lived in the desert and thought about tossing the thermostat, I'd still keep the flaps and tack weld the flaps full open. Yes, I know people have good luck running neither the thermostat or the flaps, but the heads starve for airflow without them. The jugs run too cold and the heads run too hot without them.
You can see how the airflow is aimed at the heads with the flaps and priority is given to the heads. |
What is said above is very true.
Even on the hottest 120F day in the desert, the motor when cold is still hundreds of degrees below the warmed up temperature. A working thermostat lessens the time running at low temperature when tolerances or all wrong for operation, valve lash is not correct until engine is warmed, iron cylinder bore is loose over the aluminum piston until warmed. A working system does not restrict cooling when engine is at correct operating temperature on hot days at all.
If you drive short drives, even on a 120F day, the engine may not warm up at all if the warm up system is removed.
Bug On with correct engine tolerances rapidly obtained !
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