Clutch issues

[Thalarctos]

I have an 87 Westy, all stock, with about 170k miles. This is the first summer I'm getting to know her. Had a power issue that turned out to be an exhaust restriction, recently changed the transmission fluid (along with the oil), topped off the brake fluid, and adjusted the shift linkage (I had to push down on the shifted to reach 1st and 2nd before). I've had no trouble shifting and it was running beautifully while camping over the weekend. When driving it around town yesterday, I had trouble getting into gear and the clutch pedal felt different. If I pushed all the way to the floor I could get it in gear. I got home with no further issues.
When I pulled it into the garage this morning here's what I noticed.

1. shifts perfectly when engine not running and the clutch pedal feels like normal. No free play or loose feel to the clutch pedal (I can hear a spring stretching close to the floor is all).
2. When I started the van, I could feel vibrations in the clutch pedal when I pushed slightly. It went away and felt normal when pushed further into the floor.
3. When in 1st, the usual clutch play I have is gone and it seems to immediately engage with the pedal away from the floor.
4. When stopping with clutch pedal depressed all the way, it runs like its about to stall.
5. Pumping the clutch pedal didn't seem to have any effect and I don't see any fluid leaking from master or slave cylinders.

Do I need a clutch replacement? Anything related to the new transmission fluid (gl5) I used? Any help or further diagnosing tips would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your time.

[Wildthings]

Have you tried to bleed the clutch slave cylinder?

There is no clutch adjustment, the hydraulic clutch mechanism should be self adjusting.

Maybe you have a clutch disc that is coming apart?

Your problem doesn't quite sound like a failed pilot bearing, but such a failure would still be on the list.

GL-5 oil may keep the synchros from working well (VW recommends GL-4 oil for a reason), but should not cause the problem you are seeing.

[Ahwahnee]

X2 on bleed the clutch - pretty simple other than getting your fingers in the tight space. ven w/o any leakage they seem to need a bleed every year or two.

If you do not know how old the hydraulic fluid is (or if it is dark) you may want to bleed until the new stuff is coming out.

[Thalarctos]

I tried bleeding the slave cylinder and went through about 1/2 cup of fluid until I was sure there was no air and it came out relatively clear, topped the reservoir off, and tried shifting again. Same issue.

It grinds trying to go into reverse, I got it into 1st gear, but it took quite a push to get there. It idled fine with my foot pushing into the floor. I tried other gears and 4th was the only other one I could push it into. It eventually stalled after about 2 minutes of running in gear with my foot never leaving the floor.

I don't see either cylinder leaking. Should I swap them out anyways? Should I bleed the whole system (it was very dark when it first came out) Is there a way to see if this is a larger problem?

Thanks for your post gents.

[Thalarctos]

I also looked up into the dash and didn't see anything that would indicate the clovis pin wearing. That and there is very little pedal play.

I should mention that this van sat around for quite a while before I purchased it.

[Wildthings]

You can measure the amount of movement of the clutch release arm and potentially learn a bit. Not sure the exact amount of movement that is normal, but others will surely chime in.

You may have problems with the clutch release shaft or arm, both are known points of failure.

[dobryan]

If this was my bus I’d drop the trans and take a look at the clutch. YMMV.
_________________
Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD

"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson

MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646

Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371

The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794

[Howesight]

Your clutch is clearly not disengaging when you fully depress the clutch pedal. This is clear from the grinding and inability to shift gears and related symptoms.

There are five possible reasons for this, but only two are likely:

1. The clutch master cylinder is failing. They can leak internally such that a small amount of movement of the actuating lever (at the slave cylinder) is accomplished, but not a full disengagement of the clutch. These master cylinders are cheap and easy to replace and, if you end up replacing your clutch, the master cylinder should be replaced anyway "while you are in there".

2. The clutch slave cylinder is failing. They, too, can leak internally, but unlike the master cylinder, there is usually some evidence of leakage also. Slave cylinders are also cheap and easy to replace and, if you end up replacing your clutch, it should be replaced "while you are in there".

3. The clutch lever arms in the bell housing (to which the release bearing attaches) are bent. This can only be seen after separating the engine and transaxle. It seldom happens to stock Vanagons and more frequently happens if a heavy-duty pressure plate is used.

4. The pressure plate is damaged. This can only be seen after separating the engine and transaxle. This is not very likely to be the cause of your problems.

5. The clutch release bearing is failing catastrophically. Again, this rarely occurs.


When a clutch master cylinder fails or is failing internally, it can often be checked by depressing the clutch pedal fully dozens of times repeatedly (with engine off) which may bring the point at which resistance in the clutch pedal rising to close to normal. If you try this (literally 50 to 100 times rapidly depressing the clutch pedal) and the engagement point rises, then the clutch master cylinder is at fault. BTDT.
_________________
'86 Syncro Westy SVX

[Thalarctos]

Thanks for the advice.

Wildthings, The clutch release arm moves quite a bit (I'll try to get a video). Not sure exactly how much its supposed to move.

Howesight, I'm thinking of replacing both cylinders because this vehicle sat around for a while and some of the components may have dried up and won't hold pressure. I'll try your suggestion of pumping the clutch and see if that has any affect.

Thanks again for your advice. This is a huge help.

[E1]

Learned post Howesight, Thanks.
_________________
‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
— Colin Chapman

[Gurr]

Has this issue been fixed? I'm getting the same thing happening on a 4 speed 091. I tried bleeding and checking the pin. I was beginning to suspect the pressure plate as both of the cylinders were replaced not that long ago.

[MarkWard]

I don't see mentioned the clutch disc sticking to the input shaft. I also did not see a mention of the input shaft pilot bearing failing located in the end of the crankshaft. Unfortunately, they can only be checked once the transmission and engine are separated. Either can cause grinding when shifting into gear with the engine running.
_________________
☮️

[Gurr]

Hmm. The 82 vanagon, Reuben, can be started in gear on jackstands. He has a grinding sound near the front side of the transmission (towards the driver). which on the exploded diagram looked like those needle bearings holding the gear assemblies.

However, that's a totally different issue. The slave cylinder actuates. Why does the clutch plate stick?

[dhaavers]

Herr Gurr - How old is the clutch? Clutch plates usually stick because they're stuck...often fragged/FUBAR:

BEST way to find the problem is pull the trans & actually have a look at what you're looking at.

If I can do it you can, too...

- Dave
_________________
86 White Wolfsburg Westy Weekender
"The WonderVan"
<EDITED TO PROTECT INNOCENT PIXELS>

[Gurr]

[Thalarctos]

i ordered a new master clutch cylinder and slave cylinder and will install them to see if that is the problem. I am currently out of the state and wont be able to work on it until the first week of July. I'll post my results then. I'm going to use Howesight's list as a guide. Hoping its just bad cylinders.

[Thalarctos]

Well, I replaced both the clutch master and slave cylinders and no change. Everything seems to be exactly the same. I can feel a slight vibration in the clutch pedal, it feels a little too easy to push in (might be my imagination), and I am unable to get it into gear with the engine running. I don't see any leaks anywhere and I tried to pump the clutch like crazy 50 times or so to see if that helped (it did not).

I tried to bleed the system as best I could (that might be my problem) but I will double check tonight with a friend to help me.

Can you think of anything else I should check to see if the cylinders were bad (the slave's boot was torn)?

What would my next step in a diagnosis be?

Thanks again in advance for all the help here.

[dhaavers]

Time to pull the trans. You've done what you can from the outside.
My money is still on fragged clutch... <shrug>

Get in there & tell us what you see...

http://volksweb.relitech.com/clutch.htm

- Dave
_________________
86 White Wolfsburg Westy Weekender
"The WonderVan"
<EDITED TO PROTECT INNOCENT PIXELS>

[Thalarctos]

Looks like its time for me to get busy and take on this new task. First time pulling the transmission. Can anyone recommend a checklist of things to do with my transmission/clutch "while I'm in there"?

I've thought about replacing that bearing that wears out around 170K miles (3-4 bearing or something). Or, should i just stick with the clutch replacement and worry about that when I get there?

Also, I can't help but think that this problem is related to my changing the transmission fluid. It happened within 2 days of the fluid change, but I don't see how they can be related. Oh well, no one said getting to know your van was easy.

[Wildthings]