Author |
Message |
Ride-Fly Samba Member
Joined: May 25, 2015 Posts: 621 Location: PDX
|
Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:41 am Post subject: On the road to Yellowstone...I’ve got an odd electrical problem |
|
|
Well we just started our 3 day drive out to Yellowstone and we encountered an electrical problem. I suspect that the alternator is bad. I suspect the battery itself isn’t bad because it’s not very old- maybe 3 years??
Is there anything I should know about the alternator before I call the local auto shops? Is the alternator easily replaceable or do I have to find a VW specialty shop?
For some background on the battery/electrical: Seems that when the battery is fully charged, it starts without much problem on multiple successive attempts. For expamle, I can start the van and go to the store one day. Next day, I can run errands. Three days later, more errands. Or so that was the case until yesterday. Yesterday after the drive from PDX to Hood River to get lunch, it started up fine. Then after a gas stop, started fine. Took a slight detour to see an Oregon Trail landmark off the 84 and van was dead. No cell coverage, and not a person around, I thought I was camping short of my first interned stop! Fortunately the local park manager happened to drive up to check the site at closing hours and he was able to give me a jump. Got to driving the rest of the way to our first night’s lodging in Nampa, ID. After stopping to check in, had the same problem...no start. It seems the van won’t start after driving around awhile. I said “fully charged” because yesterday, I only got a quick jump to get going. When the battery occasionally died at home (I.e., from leaving the interior lights on too long), I was able to charge the battery fully, and would have no starting problems as described above.
One other anomaly to note, was that, in the past, when I idled the van for a long time (15-20 mins) the van would stall, and then wouldn’t start until I jumped the battery. It would act like it was starving of fuel. Does it sound like an alternator not running to its full capacity of 14.3 or whatever the nominal volts are?
Thanks for any help or suggestions. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
tates1882 Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2012 Posts: 275 Location: Southwest Idaho
|
Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:49 am Post subject: Re: On the road to Yellowstone...I’ve got an odd electrical problem |
|
|
There are some decent VW shops in the Boise area, Allans Automotive in Garden City. They will probably have an alternator. _________________ 88 Vanaru, ej22, naht |
|
Back to top |
|
|
elizer Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2016 Posts: 1450 Location: Northern Virginia
|
Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:51 am Post subject: Re: On the road to Yellowstone...I’ve got an odd electrical problem |
|
|
27.15 of the bently. Replacing is not hard. You posted some stuff about doing other work and this is in your wheelhouse. How many times did you drain your battery? It very well could be the battery. Now if it won't start after running a while but then starts after sitting a bit that is another story. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Ride-Fly Samba Member
Joined: May 25, 2015 Posts: 621 Location: PDX
|
Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:51 am Post subject: Re: On the road to Yellowstone...I’ve got an odd electrical problem |
|
|
tates1882 wrote: |
There are some decent VW shops in the Boise area, Allans Automotive in Garden City. They will probably have an alternator. |
Thanks for the tip! I was just going to ask this question in a separate thread.
Anyone got other recommendations for the Boise area?
Last edited by Ride-Fly on Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
tates1882 Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2012 Posts: 275 Location: Southwest Idaho
|
Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:52 am Post subject: Re: On the road to Yellowstone...I’ve got an odd electrical problem |
|
|
Ride-Fly wrote: |
One other anomaly to note, was that, in the past, when I idled the van for a long time (15-20 mins) the van would stall, and then wouldn’t start until I jumped the battery. It would act like it was starving of fuel. Does it sound like an alternator not running to its full capacity of 14.3 or whatever the nominal volts are?
Thanks for any help or suggestions. |
Sounds like the Vanagon syndrome, I'm not sure though, I'm a subie swap van. I believe its something to do with the negative/ground connection related to the ecu and throttle(?) sensor. A quick search should yield some info. _________________ 88 Vanaru, ej22, naht |
|
Back to top |
|
|
elizer Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2016 Posts: 1450 Location: Northern Virginia
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
tates1882 Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2012 Posts: 275 Location: Southwest Idaho
|
Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:56 am Post subject: Re: On the road to Yellowstone...I’ve got an odd electrical problem |
|
|
Ride-Fly wrote: |
tates1882 wrote: |
There are some decent VW shops in the Boise area, Allans Automotive in Garden City. They will probably have an alternator. |
Thanks for the tip! I was just going to ask this question in a separate thread.
Anyone got other recommendations for the Boise area? |
Allan's has a nice sized bone yard to pick over for parts if need be. _________________ 88 Vanaru, ej22, naht |
|
Back to top |
|
|
E1 Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013 Posts: 6375 Location: Westfalia, Earth
|
Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:59 am Post subject: Re: On the road to Yellowstone...I’ve got an odd electrical problem |
|
|
Any NAPA should have this alternator. Replacing is super easy for any mechanic, but the belt tension has to be right. The biggest challenge is getting the belt pulley off and onto the new alternator.
It would be highly recommended to buy a multimeter -- with batteries. You set it on 20 DCV, put the positive probe on the big wire coming out the back of the alternator, and the negative on the alternator case. It should read from about 13.2 to maybe 14.2 volts at idle.
If you test the battery with same settings, it should read about 12.7 volts with car off.
If you test the battery while someone else cranks the key, and it falls below 10 volts while cranking, battery is toast.
Also, check your belt tension. Pushing down with your thumb it should only flex up to about 3/4". Loose won't charge, too tight can burn up the bearing. I prefer slightly loose to avoid that, so long as there's no squeal, you're there.
Whenever you put a new belt on, check tension again in about 500 miles. They all loosen a little, but a bad brand can loosen more. Ours are made by Continental. _________________ ‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
— Colin Chapman
Last edited by E1 on Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:10 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Ride-Fly Samba Member
Joined: May 25, 2015 Posts: 621 Location: PDX
|
Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:04 am Post subject: Re: On the road to Yellowstone...I’ve got an odd electrical problem |
|
|
elizer wrote: |
27.15 of the bently. Replacing is not hard. You posted some stuff about doing other work and this is in your wheelhouse. How many times did you drain your battery? It very well could be the battery. Now if it won't start after running a while but then starts after sitting a bit that is another story. |
Thanks elizer! I am perusing through the Bentley manual at this moment and was just about on 27.15.
As for the number of times the battery was drained since I got it? Probably 5 or 6 times??? I’m not sure.
As for replacing the alternator, I could probably handle it with my tools in the roadtrip kit, but it will probably take me too long. Rather have someone fix it, and get back on the road. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Ride-Fly Samba Member
Joined: May 25, 2015 Posts: 621 Location: PDX
|
Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:10 am Post subject: Re: On the road to Yellowstone...I’ve got an odd electrical problem |
|
|
E1 wrote: |
Any NAPA should have this alternator.
It would be highly recommended to buy a multimeter -- with batteries. You set it on 20 DCV, put the positive probe on the big wire coming out the back of the alternator, and the negative on the alternator case. It should read from about 13.2 to maybe 14.2 at idle.
If you test the battery with same settings, it should read about 12.7 volts with car off.
If you test the battery while someone else cranks the key, and it falls below 10 volts while cranking, battery is toast.
Also, check your belt tension. Pushing down with your thumb it should only flex up to about 3/4". Loose won't charge, too tight can burn up the bearing. I prefer slightly loose to avoid that, so long as there's no squeal, you're there. |
Also great gouge E1! Thanks! Funny thing is I have several voltmeters at home...the one in my roadtrip toolbox is old and might not even be working! Oh well, another voltmeter won’t hurt. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
E1 Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013 Posts: 6375 Location: Westfalia, Earth
|
Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:11 am Post subject: Re: On the road to Yellowstone...I’ve got an odd electrical problem |
|
|
No worries Bud, Good Luck!
I added more useless info to my post. _________________ ‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
— Colin Chapman |
|
Back to top |
|
|
joetiger Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2005 Posts: 5068 Location: denver
|
Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:12 am Post subject: Re: On the road to Yellowstone...I’ve got an odd electrical problem |
|
|
So if I'm reading correctly, it only gives you trouble when you try to start it after a long/warm drive, correct?
Shot in the dark here, but easy to check:
Have you checked your battery ground cable to make sure you have a good connection? Everything's nice and tight?
I had a similar problem with my van and it turned out that I didn't have a good, solid ground for the starting battery. I actually added a second ground and it solved the problem. Best of luck regardless! _________________ Joe T.
'86 NAHT Vanagon GL Syncro/ supercharged ABA 2.0 "Pigpen"
'04 GTI 1.8T
'04 Golf R32
"get metaphysical with it. if it's simply a means to get to and from places, it will let you down. if it becomes your zen, it can't fail you." -dabaron
"Still, it's good to be afield."--VWagabond
Available Now! Vanagon to Louisiana--A Two-Lane Reckoning Through Past and Present
www.josephtrussell.com |
|
Back to top |
|
|
E1 Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013 Posts: 6375 Location: Westfalia, Earth
|
Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:21 am Post subject: Re: On the road to Yellowstone...I’ve got an odd electrical problem |
|
|
Joe brings up a good point here -- if the battery and alternator tests fine.
Ours hesitated a few times before starting over a few months. Then one day just stalled (and it just *had to* being on the way to burgers after a 120-mile backpack!). It was a cracked-then-broken eyelet on the main starter wire connection.
Per your issue of not starting when hot, we've seen this twice: once was vapor lock, once was a Temp II sensor. _________________ ‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
— Colin Chapman |
|
Back to top |
|
|
danfromsyr Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004 Posts: 15129 Location: Syracuse, NY
|
Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:21 am Post subject: Re: On the road to Yellowstone...I’ve got an odd electrical problem |
|
|
yeah, by no start
just what is it doing
do you get a slow crank
a multiple clicks/chatter
a single click
or nothing at all from the rear
could be as simple as heat soak overwhelming the electrons and not enough clean path across the solenoid to pull it.. then a boost/jump is at ~14v et voila.
dead battery will slowly crank and dim lights till it chatters..
clean the ground paths, add an additional ground strap from the starter bolt to the (clean) chassis bolt.
the 2nd issue is that the sad fact is the old engine management system really doesn't like to idle.. it heat soaks also. _________________
Abscate wrote: |
These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Ride-Fly Samba Member
Joined: May 25, 2015 Posts: 621 Location: PDX
|
Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:23 am Post subject: Re: On the road to Yellowstone...I’ve got an odd electrical problem |
|
|
elizer wrote: |
27.15 of the bently. Replacing is not hard. You posted some stuff about doing other work and this is in your wheelhouse. How many times did you drain your battery? It very well could be the battery. Now if it won't start after running a while but then starts after sitting a bit that is another story. |
One thing I read in the Bentley was on 27.13 for the starter. Under “Note: an engine that won’t crank or battery that is repeatedly discharged while driving may be caused by poor wiring connections that result from a loose fastening nut on terminal 30 of the starter motor”.
This sounds sort of like my problem. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
mikemtnbike Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2015 Posts: 2780 Location: North Carolina
|
Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
I'm just going to add to E1's comments about tightening up all the wiring to and from the starter. Doing this really helped my van's starting- was rrr-rrr-rrr-rrr before the spark of life, now rrVROOM!
Also, being able to start after a "quick jump" to me indicates a possible grounding issue- you're using the other vehicles ground, basically. _________________ 1991 Vanagon GL 2.1 AT Westfauxlia. "Frankie" Totaled https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=764510&highlight=carnage
1995 Eurovan Camper "Marzivan"
2020 GTI SE manual |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Ride-Fly Samba Member
Joined: May 25, 2015 Posts: 621 Location: PDX
|
Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:31 am Post subject: Re: On the road to Yellowstone...I’ve got an odd electrical problem |
|
|
joetiger wrote: |
So if I'm reading correctly, it only gives you trouble when you try to start it after a long/warm drive, correct?
Shot in the dark here, but easy to check:
Have you checked your battery ground cable to make sure you have a good connection? Everything's nice and tight?
I had a similar problem with my van and it turned out that I didn't have a good, solid ground for the starting battery. I actually added a second ground and it solved the problem. Best of luck regardless! |
Thanks, I’ll check the ground connection too. How did you add the second ground? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Ahwahnee Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2010 Posts: 9776 Location: Mt Lemmon, AZ
|
Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:33 am Post subject: Re: On the road to Yellowstone...I’ve got an odd electrical problem |
|
|
danfromsyr wrote: |
yeah, by no start
just what is it doing
do you get a slow crank
a multiple clicks/chatter
a single click
or nothing at all from the rear... |
Everything pretty much depends on the answer to the above.
Not Vanagon Syndrome.
Possibly a hot-start issue (resolved by adding a relay, meanwhile do not shut it down unless you'll be parked awhile).
Could be Temp II sensor. It can fool you as while you are doing other stuff (getting a jump, looking for a cell signal) it cools enough to be okay.
Could be the battery or alternator.
Almost any auto parts place (O'reilly, AutoZone, etc. will wheel a tester out to the vehicle and test the battery (load test, not just voltage) and also test the alternator.
As mentioned, alternator replacement is straight-forward wrenching -- easily handled in a campground or parking lot. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
thenomad Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2006 Posts: 31
|
Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:46 am Post subject: Re: On the road to Yellowstone...I’ve got an odd electrical problem |
|
|
If you need to replace the alternator, I had luck recently with NAPA. Changing in the parking lot was easy and they were even kind enough to swap the pulley for me since they had an impact gun. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Marshj Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2017 Posts: 268 Location: New Jersey
|
Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:51 am Post subject: Re: On the road to Yellowstone...I’ve got an odd electrical problem |
|
|
Ahwahnee wrote: |
danfromsyr wrote: |
yeah, by no start
just what is it doing
do you get a slow crank
a multiple clicks/chatter
a single click
or nothing at all from the rear... |
Everything pretty much depends on the answer to the above.
Not Vanagon Syndrome.
Possibly a hot-start issue (resolved by adding a relay, meanwhile do not shut it down unless you'll be parked awhile).
Could be Temp II sensor. It can fool you as while you are doing other stuff (getting a jump, looking for a cell signal) it cools enough to be okay.
Could be the battery or alternator.
Almost any auto parts place (O'reilly, AutoZone, etc. will wheel a tester out to the vehicle and test the battery (load test, not just voltage) and also test the alternator.
As mentioned, alternator replacement is straight-forward wrenching -- easily handled in a campground or parking lot. |
This is spot on. A 30 minute job, if you’re going slow in a NAPA parking lot. Have them load test the battery and they might need to bench test the alternator. They’ll have it in stock. I was at autozone last week.
My Silverado alternator went on the roadside, I ubered to autozone, got what I needed and ubered back to the truck. The vans alternator is easier to replace than a Silverado.
Search it on YouTube there are videos that will give you the confidence to do it. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|