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whip618
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Location: Albuquerque
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 Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 4:58 am Post subject: Type IV oil Pump |
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Does anyone know the what the end-play on a type IV oil pump should be? The Bentley's manual gives the tolerances for the type I pump but not the type IV unless the two pumps have the same wear limit specs.
Thanks, Phil
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keifernet
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 8:38 am Post subject: |
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They are basically the same pump with a different syle cover, so I would think the wear specs would be the same.  |
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ratwell
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keifernet
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whip618
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Joined: October 16, 2002
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Location: Albuquerque
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the replies, I'll the type 4orm.
Phil
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Tcash
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SGKent 
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Joined: October 30, 2007
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Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:05 pm Post subject: Re: Type IV oil Pump |
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TC - This post is from 2004.
Phil and I addressed this when I bought a NOS pump from Germany. He sets all his blueprinted pumps to about .0015" lash last time I spoke with him. If one looks at a new T1 shadeck it is .0000 lash and then the lash is controlled with the thin paper gasket. As the plate wears on a T1 engine the lash increases. It can be brought back by sanding the plate flat again on a T1 pump. A T4 pump must be disassembled and milled. It is not uncommon to see T4 pumps at .005" to .007" at rebuild time.
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hazetguy
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Joined: April 06, 2001
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Location: iT StiNgeD iTseLf tO dEAd
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: Type IV oil Pump |
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Bump
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raygreenwood
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: Type IV oil Pump |
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| SGKent wrote: |
TC - This post is from 2004.
Phil and I addressed this when I bought a NOS pump from Germany. He sets all his blueprinted pumps to about .0015" lash last time I spoke with him. If one looks at a new T1 shadeck it is .0000 lash and then the lash is controlled with the thin paper gasket. As the plate wears on a T1 engine the lash increases. It can be brought back by sanding the plate flat again on a T1 pump. A T4 pump must be disassembled and milled. It is not uncommon to see T4 pumps at .005" to .007" at rebuild time. |
Yes...and in my opinion....the outer gasket dimensions of the type 1 style pump is an issue. A small one..but an issue. Its hard to find thin oil pump plate gaskets...or uniform ones.
I tend to think that the gasket puts too much axial play in the pumps..between gears and cover. Lots of pressure loss...and that goes a lot toward WHY many type 1 people believe they NEED a 30mm pump.
As you know....the axial play in these pumps can be as much of an efficiency loss as excessive gear lash. And...axial play can actually let pressure bleed from the high pressure output side....across to the low pressure inlet side and the turbulence can affect oil ingress.
On a cast iron pump...I am finding 0.000 tolerance as well. And...I measured my Melling yesterday ..with 20k miles on it...and it has right at .002" gear lash.
Ray |
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SGKent
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Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:55 pm Post subject: Re: Type IV oil Pump |
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| Quote: |
| the outer gasket dimensions of the type 1 style pump is an issue. A small one..but an issue. Its hard to find thin oil pump plate gaskets...or uniform ones. |
Ray - The thin ones used for the pump to plate are part number 111-115- 131/ B and practically every bug shop in the world stocks them.
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raygreenwood
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:41 pm Post subject: Re: Type IV oil Pump |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| Quote: |
| the outer gasket dimensions of the type 1 style pump is an issue. A small one..but an issue. Its hard to find thin oil pump plate gaskets...or uniform ones. |
Ray - The thin ones used for the pump to plate are part number 111-115- 131/ B and practically every bug shop in the world stocks them. |
And....I didnt say I had any problem finding them. I said I had problems finding thin and uniform gaskets.
What is commonly available....are not actually that thin. They generally only crush about 25-30%....at best.....and they tend to start out at anywhere from.004" to .006". And they are not consistent all around.
That was the whole point of the comment. The only inprecise thing about type 1 pumps is that gasket.
Here we are talking about the need for precison in axial gear play.....right?.....and type 1 pumps have a gasket that can make that tolerance be all over the planet by a common range of .001" to .003".....and I have seen worse.
This is not really the fault of those who sell them or make them. The market for precision vegetable fiber and synthetic gasket papers.....is very expensive.
Cheap basic gasket paper tends to get used in the aftermarket.
Maybe I should print gaskets. I was just in a customer last week near Chicago and we were printing custom gaskets on release liner.....right at 30 microns, +/- 5 microns (silicone but you can print anything). Thats right at .0012" +/- .0002".
On the other hand....paper gaskets....all of them...crush and/or shrink a little more with age....causing the plate ti not have as much clamping force unless you periodically check and tighten.
Perhaps the very best gasket would be a soft metal shim of exact thickness....like annealed aluminum or magnesium. Ray
What I |
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SGKent
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Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:17 pm Post subject: Re: Type IV oil Pump |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| And....I didnt say I had any problem finding them |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
Its hard to find thin oil pump plate gaskets
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Ray - Maybe I speak a different dialect than you do. Do you ever read the volumes you write, or is it just flow of consciousness?
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raygreenwood
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:41 pm Post subject: Re: Type IV oil Pump |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| And....I didnt say I had any problem finding them |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
Its hard to find thin oil pump plate gaskets
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Ray - Maybe I speak a different dialect than you do. Do you ever read the volumes you write, or is it just flow of consciousness? |
And....I meant exactly what I said.
If you call a .004" gasket....designed make a .0015" tolerance...THIN.....then any type 1 engine you build must suck......because you "seem" to be willing to say...."oh well.....cant find what is required so I will just use whatever they sell"..... 
Lemme spell that out for ya.....
It is VERY HARD to find THIN gaskets....PROPERLY THIN gasketa.......becuse most of what most vendors call THIN....is not thin at all. Get it now?
And....I went on to mention.....didn't I.....?????????????......that they are not consistent.
Let me toss that asinine question right back at you......
Do you ever read anything anyone posts....and actually THINK about what they said....especially with reference to what the conversation was actually about and what was posted before?.....can you figure things out that are written .....without being totally spoonfed?
I am beginning to think not.....
Ray |
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SGKent
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Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: Type IV oil Pump |
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you are shouting Ray and it is annoying.
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Tcash
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SGKent
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Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: Type IV oil Pump |
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Tim - that is the one that I remember is thinner than the red ones. I used to use those and toss the red ones because they were thicker than the beige ones.
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SGKent
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:39 pm Post subject: Re: Type IV oil Pump |
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Came across an old photo I took for another thread. There is also a difference in where the oil ports are and size on a T1 vs T4
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