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Rubber Duck
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Joined: January 18, 2006
Posts: 806
Location: Pitt Meadows BC
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 Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:38 am Post subject: 34 ICT Air Filters |
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The kind of air filters I have with my ICTs are the small pancake-looking ones. I was thinking of getting these. What's the difference? And why are they so tall? Is there something in them (like a tube or something?) or are they taller just to let more air in. Mine currently are like maybe just an inch tall and 6 inches in diameter.
I ask because there was another post here debating the effects of more airflow vs less for carbs. Just wondering....
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Rubber Duck
1974 Westfalia |
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Lindoom
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Joined: July 02, 2009
Posts: 94
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| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:42 am Post subject: |
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Those are the ones I have on mine as well. Cant tell you that they are better than your's but I like them.
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SGKent 
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:52 am Post subject: |
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you want something that acts like a bell shaped funnel towards the venturi and allows air to be pulled in from the top and all sides equally. Air does not want to make a 90 degree bend after coming into the airfilter.
I am not endorsing any product but here is an example of what I mean by dome that allows air from all sides:
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aryue
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Joined: January 16, 2006
Posts: 1027
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:05 am Post subject: |
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I prefer a tallish filter assembly that's much larger than a motorcycle K&N style shown in your $9.95 link.
The set up offered by CB Performance which comes a cross bar linkage would be my preference, but it is nearly ten times the price of the K&N style filter that you are considering.
Best Regards - Andrew in Austin, TX
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http://www.ph.utexas.edu/~yue/VW/VWBus.html |
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aryue
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Joined: January 16, 2006
Posts: 1027
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| SGKent wrote: |
I am not endorsing any product but here is an example of what I mean by dome that allows air from all sides:
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Whooo hooo! It looks like the vanes are included so that the incoming air comes in to create a vortex.
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http://www.ph.utexas.edu/~yue/VW/VWBus.html |
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4Doora
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Joined: November 13, 2006
Posts: 1153
Location: Hudson, NH
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| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:32 am Post subject: Re: 34 ICT Air Filters |
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| Rubber Duck wrote: |
The kind of air filters I have with my ICTs are the small pancake-looking ones. I was thinking of getting these. What's the difference? And why are they so tall? Is there something in them (like a tube or something?) or are they taller just to let more air in. Mine currently are like maybe just an inch tall and 6 inches in diameter.
I ask because there was another post here debating the effects of more airflow vs less for carbs. Just wondering.... |
The ones you have are most likely for a type 3 pancake engine.
the cone ones are the ones usually seen on upright setups with icts.
It's simply a matter of clearance, but I would think that the taller ones would allow more air, seeing as the surface area of the filter is larger.
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Rubber Duck
Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2006
Posts: 806
Location: Pitt Meadows BC
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| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| SGKent wrote: |
you want something that acts like a bell shaped funnel towards the venturi and allows air to be pulled in from the top and all sides equally. Air does not want to make a 90 degree bend after coming into the airfilter.
I am not endorsing any product but here is an example of what I mean by dome that allows air from all sides:
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Nice...a little overkill for a 1974 bus I think, but still, nice 
So concensus is that taller/bigger/more air is better, There's also this one from CIP, but its EMPI...so not too sure about quality.
At $13.99 its cheaper though (CDN funds vs US) and no shipping as I can pop over there to pick it up  Thanks for the replies...at least I have a picture in mind now, of what else I can do to improve my old 34 ICT carbs
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Rubber Duck
1974 Westfalia |
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SGKent
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:38 am Post subject: |
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the one you show has a top to it. That is the whole point. The air comes from that direction and you block it off with a metal plate? Gee, that makes sense. I guess you just want to believe chrome bring you attention.
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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51152
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:55 am Post subject: |
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The engine compartment has a top as well, where do you stop? 
The taller "pod" style filters would be an improvement over the flat ones by a long shot, maybe call AVR parts in Abbotsford and see if they have something better.
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SGKent
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:07 am Post subject: |
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as high as you can go. You want as much filter area as possible and the air to come straight in as much as possible. Unless you just want it to look purty so your buddies and the local women are impressed that yours looks kewl.
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Desertbusman
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Joined: June 03, 2005
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Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:14 am Post subject: |
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Duck- The pod style you were looking at is pretty much required on ICT's using the Redline type of linkage. No room for anything any larger in diameter. And almost everyone sells the pods. The CB filters like I use are much larger but they go along with the CB linkage components. Check out WWW.Chirco.com They have a real large assortment of filters with different filtering media. Again, the main criteria is your linkage. Kind of funny, but it seems like lots of people are using the gauze filters and don't oil them. Without oil the only thing they filter out are rocks and grasshoppers.
Maybe Kent can locate a source for some of his filter that don't have a solid top. I've sure never seen any.
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SGKent
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:20 am Post subject: |
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The top photo is what a carb intake stack should look like more or less without an aircleaner. If you put something right over top of the inlet stack you are robbing yourself of much performance.
The next photo shows a filter with an added velocity stack - something like this might even allow for more performance than the KN because of the added velocity stack. If you are going to use the KN, try to find a velocity stack to go with it so the air doesn't have right angles to navigate. The curve and texture will help with the laminar flow. I would go with a velocity stack and the tallest widest filter that would fit.
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Rubber Duck
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Joined: January 18, 2006
Posts: 806
Location: Pitt Meadows BC
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| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| Unless you just want it to look purty so your buddies and the local women are impressed that yours looks kewl. |
Hey Merlin...you off your meds or something? You're normally not the 'personal-jab' kinda guy, but these last two posts of yours sound like you're real frustrated about something! 
Anyway, thanks for your helpful comments about the airflow. I never knew all that about the straight flow etc. So now I know what a velocity stack is! I never figured that those taller ones will have a stack inside them!
DBM, in terms of diameter, I don't know what brand of linkage I have now, but its a hex-shaped bar that leaves more than enough room for my current aircleaners, which are about 6 inches in diameter, which looks even wider than the pods. I too had the gauze filters and did not know that they were supposed to be oiled. In fact, when I first got them, I thought they were too oily so I washed them with degreaser and ran them that way for awhile!  Thanks to some posts on the samba, they're oiled now 
BD, thanks for the tip...Maybe the taller pods might fix my idle miss eh I'll be calling those guys soon as I might be heading over to abby one of these days. My wife found a guy who has Federal 185R14s at a great price there 
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Rubber Duck
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Desertbusman
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| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:52 am Post subject: |
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Chirco has stacks but I doubt there is anything that would fit on a ICT with a filter on top of it. It would be rough to tune. The short syncronizer barely works on the top of my carbs now. Maybe a T-4 with the top hatch is what's needed.
Kent did you ever try a velocity stack and a filter without a top on the stock Solex carb on your old bus? Be interesting to see what improvement it would have. The stock Solex must be running at twice the velocity as our dual baby Webers that are the same size bore.
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SGKent
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Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:57 am Post subject: |
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Desertbusman - frustrated only when people choose "don't confuse me with the facts."
The post that started this in part read:
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| ...debating the effects of more airflow vs less for carbs. Just wondering.... |
I offered an answer based on many days and hours of dyno testing that eventually led to an SCCA class champion in G-production. A 1400 engine that outraced the larger F-prod cars with bigger engines - except for the Huffaker - Hoffman doughboy team. Always looking at that darn finger on the back of their black MGB. They were really hard to beat under any circumstances as they had things dialed in to a level that was almost unimaginable. That thing made HP so well that the hood had to be painted after every race from the heat the engine put out.
And if someone igores educational tips by someone with more experience in a certain area, that is life. It moves on and someone else passes them waving by-by.
Gotta run.
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SGKent
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Joined: October 30, 2007
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Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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you want to locate or have something like this made for your carbs from someone who has flow tested various shapes. Then run as tall and wide a filter as you can. Desertbusman - I believe your filters in your photo will flow better than the cone shaped one. One would need a flow bench to know for sure.
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somdair-coolers
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Joined: January 11, 2009
Posts: 112
Location: Mechanicsville,Md
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| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| SGKent wrote: |
you want something that acts like a bell shaped funnel towards the venturi and allows air to be pulled in from the top and all sides equally. Air does not want to make a 90 degree bend after coming into the airfilter.
I am not endorsing any product but here is an example of what I mean by dome that allows air from all sides:
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Where would someone pick up one of these? That looks crazy. |
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Desertbusman
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Joined: June 03, 2005
Posts: 14655
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| frustrated only when people choose "don't confuse me with the facts." |
Yes, I know what you mean. It frequently does get frustating. One of the negative side effects of this internet stuff. With my VW's it has been pretty much been "been there- done that", alone, and refering to literature from those that knew and were successful with it, and before any involvement with the VW internet. Additionally, the experience of a lifetime automotive hobby, a life time profession of a mechanical and hydraulic system design engineer, and education when we were taught to read, reason and think. So naturally we get frustrated if we come across someone who is looking for a mommy to hold his hand and hasn't seen the need yet to just simply think.
Seems like in this particular filter topic there is quest to find out what a good filter would be. No mention of wanting chrome or bling to impress whoever. Just a suitable filter. No peacock feathers like you ran into before. And most of us are aware of the value of velocity stacks and non restrictive breathing. When I built my engine I went thru the interior of the manifolds and the head ports. And have a close friend with his own engine dyno and flow bench. He's been tweeking, developing and improving dub engine design, performance and reliability for decades. And a lot of the local dubbers cram all kinds of extreme induction under the hoods of their bugs. And they pay dearly for it.
In contrast, our baby Webers are the cheapest, simplest, crudest, oldest technology carbs Weber has. Some places like CB don't even want to sell them. You almost have to kiss their behind to get them. They are in a whole different catagory than the Empi Webber in the picture. And they are just a fraction of the cost. But they do a nice job and are a fair improvement over the stock intake. Many of us VW people are on a real limited budget. Going dual ICT's was an extreme splurging on a very minimal retirement. I've only heard of one Bay person with a $30,000 budget. Doing it that way has very little to do with the rest of us. Practically none of us are going to flow test our crude ICT's and have velocity rings custom developed, designed and machined. Not with ICT's. And we're not planning on running our busses at Indy or Watkins Glen. Our VW emblems are never going to get gold plated either.
And with the air filters we take what we can get. If the only ones available have chrome or a solid top that's what we use. If anyone is aware of super totally wonderful filters with venturis, let us know.
| SGKent wrote: |
I believe your filters in your photo will flow better than the cone shaped one. One would need a flow bench to know for sure.
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With what seems to be the same filtering media and much greater surface area they are good enough for me. If you want to get one of each type and do a flow test comparison it might be interesting to see the results.
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SGKent
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Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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I agree that the Webers are a better solution. A person can over carb just as easily as under carb. Your bus has a nice look to it and my instinct tells me it runs well.
Incidently, we didn't have a $30,000 budget. That is where things morphed to. Had we done this three or four years ago the total cost might have been 1/3. Costs and availability have gone nuts. Example - two years ago the o-ring for a T4 oil pump was $2.30. In April of this year they were $4.50 but available. Today, July - just 3 months later there are no more O-rings. I have 5 T4 pumps to rebuild. I got 3 of the last rings from Canada and a source here found 5 in Germany. I took 3 of those 5. The shortage of good parts and the extreme costs of fuel have made owning one of these a luxury. People who have already restored them don't see it. Try to buy and restore one now to a really nice conditon. I wouldn't do it again.
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Rubber Duck
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Location: Pitt Meadows BC
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| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Desertbusman wrote: |
Seems like in this particular filter topic there is quest to find out what a good filter would be. No mention of wanting chrome or bling to impress whoever. Just a suitable filter. No peacock feathers like you ran into before. And most of us are aware of the value of velocity stacks and non restrictive breathing. |
Thank you DBM. That was all it was for me...a quest for knowledge. That's why I could not understand where Merlin was coming from. I am currently wrestling with some issues with my ICTs and happened to notice that others had 'bigger' filters. Mine were small. I had no reason to believe that they came in any other size but mine, until I started searching threads and found that site (where I bought the rebuild kit, which is the cheapest I could find anywhere). And yes, bling is not my thing. I just wanna make my bus run good. Busdaddy's been a great help, but its a real steep learning curve for a guy who never held a wrench till he came to this country. I know Macs and I know graphics. But all I know about vws is what I read. So yeah, now i know what those thingamajigs are called (velocity stacks).
| Desertbusman wrote: |
| In contrast, our baby Webers are the cheapest, simplest, crudest, oldest technology carbs Weber has. |
Well, I bet they work well when tuned properly, which is what I'm trying to do. And they're what came with my bus. And really, as my first carb, what better ones to learn on than the baby's eh The other thing is that so many threads on the samba are dedicated to the stock stuff. I found it really hard to find good information on the ICTs. And lots of information assumes that one knows quite a high degree of info already. So yes, I'm thinking a lot, but it goes slow with topics you have no idea about (like filters).
| Desertbusman wrote: |
| Many of us VW people are on a real limited budget. Going dual ICT's was an extreme splurging on a very minimal retirement .... And with the air filters we take what we can get. If the only ones available have chrome or a solid top that's what we use. If anyone is aware of super totally wonderful filters with venturis, let us know. |
After reading Merlin's post on the type of air filters out there, I found quite a few with the stacks built in and all. Quite interesting reading actually. However, the prices of these things are frightening! I think some were like $70 a piece! X2 for duals and well, frankly, out of my budget. Then a colleague of mine spied what i was surfing the net for and asked me where I was going to put that fancy filter on. When I told him my bus, he kinda laughed and asked what the problem was. So I explained (with my new found knowledge) all about the air, the vortext bla-bla-bla. His answer took me by surprise: If you want more air (and its always a good thing, says he) why not just drill a couple holes in the top of your filter now. Cover it up with some good filter paper and you're set. Seeing the incredulity in my eyes, he asked me to bring my filters to work tomorrow and he'd ask the 'boys in the back' to cut some sheet metal for me to make a 'holder' for some filter paper.
Well, I can't wait to see what's in store
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Rubber Duck
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