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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 34013 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:29 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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Looks like the pushrod bend forced it to rub on the pushrod tube, causing the scoring. I'd replace that pushrod, but measure them all, and put them back in the location they came from (except your one replacement, of course).
I'd worry about why it got bent (careless handling, stuck valve, who knows?), but not deal with it if everything else checks out okay. |
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crankbait09 Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016 Posts: 1304 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
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Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:10 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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KTPhil wrote: |
Looks like the pushrod bend forced it to rub on the pushrod tube, causing the scoring. I'd replace that pushrod, but measure them all, and put them back in the location they came from (except your one replacement, of course).
I'd worry about why it got bent (careless handling, stuck valve, who knows?), but not deal with it if everything else checks out okay. |
when you say measure rods, I'm assuming you mean length? Why would they not be the same? Wouldn't they have to be in order for the engine to run properly?
In the Muir book, it mentions that if you remove the heads, DO NOT jar the cylinders loose. why? what happens if this were to happen? What is so critical about this? Don't they just slide right back where they belong? _________________ 1963 Ragtop |
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24764 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:55 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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crankbait09 wrote: |
when you say measure rods, I'm assuming you mean length? Why would they not be the same? Wouldn't they have to be in order for the engine to run properly?
In the Muir book, it mentions that if you remove the heads, DO NOT jar the cylinders loose. why? what happens if this were to happen? What is so critical about this? Don't they just slide right back where they belong? |
Because push rods can vary in length due to year, engine size and how much modifying has been done to the engine.
You also want to get each rocker adjusting screw to be parallel to each valve stem halfway thru the lift of each valve. Failure to do this will result in the valve stem being pushed more over in one direction than the other and wear out the valve guide quicker.
If you jar the cylinders loose, you will need to reseal them to the engine case to avoid possibly big oil leak/s. That requires removing each cylinder and using a proper VW piston ring compressor to install the cylinders. _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
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crankbait09 Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016 Posts: 1304 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
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Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:00 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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Eric&Barb wrote: |
You also want to get each rocker adjusting screw to be parallel to each valve stem halfway thru the lift of each valve. |
I know what each part is that you mentioned, but you lost me on this procedure. Care to walk me through it, or provide a name for this procedure so I can google it _________________ 1963 Ragtop |
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24764 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:17 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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crankbait09 wrote: |
Eric&Barb wrote: |
You also want to get each rocker adjusting screw to be parallel to each valve stem halfway thru the lift of each valve. |
I know what each part is that you mentioned, but you lost me on this procedure. Care to walk me through it, or provide a name for this procedure so I can google it |
A search of the WWW for "Setting VW push rod length" will get you some results.
Here is one:
http://vdubn.com/sandrailing/engine/valvetrain.htm
and:
http://www.cbperformance.com/Articles.asp?ID=263
and much more:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=setting+VW+push+rod+length&t=canonical&ia=web
Also you want each adjusting screw tip to be touching the stem not in the center of each valve stem nor on the outer edge, but halfway between those two points. This is so each time each valve is opened the valve is slightly turned. So when each valve closes the area on the valve that touches the valve seat is not in the same spot. _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
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mr. lang Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2012 Posts: 308 Location: Germany
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:21 am Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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crankbait09 wrote: |
Time for more pictures......I think this will end badly
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Did not read the whole thread, sorry, if some of my statements are already covered.
There are two diameter push rods available one has 9.0mm the other has 8.3mm.
In your picture it looks like you have a mix of both versions.
In my notes from my engines I have written, that 9.0mm is 281mm length and 8.3mm has 280mm. Can somebody verify this ?
Please measure and when purchasing new push rods, replace the 8.3mm with the 9.0mm version.
Also to mention is the gunk under the rocker arm assembly on the rectangular bosses. One was mounted flat on the boss, but the other had some shims underneath? (so the oil and gunk did deposit that area)
Not 100% sure, but one of the intake gaskets was never squished down, so there was maybe an air leak.
Compare both heads and also check, if there are two rings stacked on top of each other.
Only one per head is necessary.
For reassembly you have to remove/replace them anyway.
If one of the push rods is sticking out further from the engine block, then you have to search in the engine block or the push rod for the culprit.
I would remove heads (only 8 easy accessible screws per side) and then remove push rod tubes and check the inside of the lifters.
And after you did this, you will find yourself doing a complete engine revision. _________________ 1966 Bus | 1969 Bug | 1976 Passat LX two-door | 1984 Golf 2 C (daily driver)
There are three kinds of people: those who can count and those who can't
Und läuft ... |
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crankbait09 Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016 Posts: 1304 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:28 am Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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Upon initial views, let's see what kind of trouble I'm in.....
Removed the heads. Both heads torqued to the required ft-lbs with no problem. Both heads did have loose nuts. But it was random. SO all were re-tightened before removal.
All the push rods are 11" in length
#4 cylinder cylinder was loose immediately. The heads actually slid off and on easily, once the push rod tubes broke free. I don't know if bumping the engine block studs while lifting the head off caused the cylinders to come loose, but all 4 jiggled at this point. So I would assume it's safe to say, the cylinder seals are all ruined.
I measured the cylinders and they all came out at 86mm.
I did notice out of all 4 cylinders, that the #2 cylinder was very wet/oily. The other three were dry.
Here are some pictures of the heads/pistons. Any red flags?
Keep in mind that Cylinder 1 intake push rod was bent.
Cylinder 1/2
_________________ 1963 Ragtop |
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crankbait09 Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016 Posts: 1304 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:31 am Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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Here is Cylinder 3/4
_________________ 1963 Ragtop |
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crankbait09 Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016 Posts: 1304 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:38 am Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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so much for only have an oil leak problem. I have certainly gone further than what I was comfortable with. And this all has to go back together
I removed the clutch. I was expecting to see oil behind it due to the main seal leaking. When I did the dye test, the only oil leaking that I saw, came from in between the transmission/the engine. Once I started tearing the engine apart, signs led me to think it was the oil cooler, and now possibly one of the cylinders. Once I removed the clutch, EVERYTHING was dry. The only thing I saw was powder that looked like "brake dust" lying in the bottom lip of the flywheel. Here are some pictures of what I see.
Would you replace the main seal, or not touch it?
_________________ 1963 Ragtop |
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67rustavenger Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015 Posts: 9769 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:07 am Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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The front main seal is located between the flywheel and the crankshaft. You can't see it if the flywheel is in place.
Remove the 36mm gland nut and then the flywheel. The seal will be orange in color, usually.
That little black seal (it's actually felt) visible in the last image. Is the pilot bearing seal. It keeps the grease in the needle (pilot) bearing. The gland nut is threaded into the end of the crankshaft. No oil can leak from the engine here. Unless something has gone freakishly wrong. _________________ I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!
Last edited by 67rustavenger on Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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crankbait09 Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016 Posts: 1304 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:11 am Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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Gotcha. When I was watching the bug me video on main seal replacement, he mentioned if I see oil in this area I mentioned, that means the main seal needs replaced, as well as the clutch since that would be full of oil as well. So that's what I was expecting to see. Guess not _________________ 1963 Ragtop |
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67rustavenger Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015 Posts: 9769 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:21 am Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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It appears that you have a 200mm clutch. If so, it's likely there's an O-ring in the recess area where the crankshaft and flywheel mate. If it's in good shape. It would prevent oil from seeping into the clutch. It's a good idea to replace that O-ring while you have the flywheel off for the front seal inspection.
crankbait09 wrote: |
Gotcha. When I was watching the bug me video on main seal replacement, he mentioned if I see oil in this area I mentioned, that means the main seal needs replaced, as well as the clutch since that would be full of oil as well. So that's what I was expecting to see. Guess not |
_________________ I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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mukluk Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2012 Posts: 7028 Location: Clyde, TX
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:30 am Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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I can't see an issue with your heads as pictured, but it's difficult to see if the seats are sunken looking at them straight on, it's best to look at an angle. In the following pic you can see an example of a pretty badly sunk intake valve seat in the left chamber.
Resealing the cylinder bases where they meet the case isn't difficult. Just slide the cylinders off carefully, making sure you don't drop the pistons, clean the mating surfaces of the cylinder base and case well, then put a thin bead of appropriate RTV around the base of the cylinder followed by reinstalling it on the piston using a ring compressor. Finish up by installing the air diverter tins under the cylinders, push rod tubes, and the heads. _________________ 1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga" |
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crankbait09 Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016 Posts: 1304 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:24 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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mr. lang wrote: |
Also to mention is the gunk under the rocker arm assembly on the rectangular bosses. One was mounted flat on the boss, but the other had some shims underneath? (so the oil and gunk did deposit that area) |
I noticed this as well. When I removed both heads, I noticed one of the heads had "Washers/spacers" under the rocker arms. The other head did not. I wasn't quite sure why, but have taken note to look in to. _________________ 1963 Ragtop |
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crankbait09 Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016 Posts: 1304 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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mukluk wrote: |
I can't see an issue with your heads as pictured, but it's difficult to see if the seats are sunken looking at them straight on, it's best to look at an angle. In the following pic you can see an example of a pretty badly sunk intake valve seat in the left chamber.
Resealing the cylinder bases where they meet the case isn't difficult. Just slide the cylinders off carefully, making sure you don't drop the pistons, clean the mating surfaces of the cylinder base and case well, then put a thin bead of appropriate RTV around the base of the cylinder followed by reinstalling it on the piston using a ring compressor. Finish up by installing the air diverter tins under the cylinders, push rod tubes, and the heads. |
I will get some additional pictures of the heads at an angle. But when looking at the heads, I certainly didn't see any sinking going on. _________________ 1963 Ragtop |
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crankbait09 Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016 Posts: 1304 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:43 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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So to back up a tad. My heads have model numbers stamped on them. They are telling me that they were from a Type 3.
So the oil sump casing halves, have two different model numbers. Why? Why would it not be one complete engine using the same number?
My oil sump casing has VW 000.101.101, and VW 000.101.102
Does this have any impact on anything? Or just a lot number that they used back in the day? _________________ 1963 Ragtop |
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24764 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:48 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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crankbait09 wrote: |
So to back up a tad. My heads have model numbers stamped on them. They are telling me that they were from a Type 3.
So the oil sump casing halves, have two different model numbers. Why? Why would it not be one complete engine using the same number?
My oil sump casing has VW 000.101.101, and VW 000.101.102
Does this have any impact on anything? Or just a lot number that they used back in the day? |
Parts that are used only only on the LH side of a VW will end in a uneven last numeral, parts only used on RH side will end in an even last numeral. Parts that are neither LH or RH can end in either a uneven or even numeral. _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
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67rustavenger Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015 Posts: 9769 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:22 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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crankbait09 wrote: |
So to back up a tad. My heads have model numbers stamped on them. They are telling me that they were from a Type 3.
So the oil sump casing halves, have two different model numbers. Why? Why would it not be one complete engine using the same number?
My oil sump casing has VW 000.101.101, and VW 000.101.102
Does this have any impact on anything? Or just a lot number that they used back in the day? |
Type 1 and type 3 engines are essentially the same. They just wear different clothes in finished form. Case, heads, cylinders are all interchangeable.
FWIW, The only stamped parts on a vw long block is the S/N and the case half match numbers. All other numbers are cast in, in the molding process.
Case match numbers are usually stamped near the engine to bell housing flange, either on the flange itself or on top of the case at the split.
This is the 3-4 side of my case. It has a matching number on the 1-2 side.
_________________ I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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crankbait09 Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016 Posts: 1304 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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As I proceed, trying to figure out what I have wrong with the engine......
Following Muir, book says to push on the valve stems to see if I get any movement, which would tell me if I need to valve guides. I got no movement, but I certainly wasn't pushing really hard. All the valves were NOT sinking. The valves looked alright to me. Would you agree?
Cylinder 1/2
Cylinder 3/4
_________________ 1963 Ragtop |
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mukluk Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2012 Posts: 7028 Location: Clyde, TX
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:14 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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They all look good to me, I'd still recommend throwing in a set of new exhaust valves though (cheap insurance). Should be part number 113109612A. _________________ 1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga" |
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