Author |
Message |
Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31266 Location: Hot Arizona
|
Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:28 am Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions |
|
|
crankbait09 wrote: |
Let me ask this. The studs that are sticking out of the side of the head that hold the heater box in place. If one needed to replace those, how would you go about doing it? Is it a matter of unscrewing and placing new in? I'm thinking about having a machine shop do this. |
These are not so easy to remove, they often break off. Mine were replaced by a VW machine shop here in Phoenix. I'll bet someone here says to heat up the stud first; lets just say that oil pump studs, etc., remove much easier, and using the double nut technique.
If the studs are still there but damaged thread, consider using an 8.0mm x 1.25mm die to clean up the threads.
I also use 8.0mm x 1.25mm brass nuts on those studs on my two engines, which also use an 11mm wrench, so easier access.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/search.php...ton=Search
_________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
crankbait09 Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016 Posts: 1297 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
|
Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:31 am Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions |
|
|
thank you. _________________ 1963 Ragtop |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24670 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
|
Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:04 am Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions |
|
|
crankbait09 wrote: |
Let me ask this. The studs that are sticking out of the side of the head that hold the heater box in place. If one needed to replace those, how would you go about doing it? Is it a matter of unscrewing and placing new in? I'm thinking about having a machine shop do this. |
Yes, sort of not. Yes in a perfect world without corrosion of metals. Not if the corrosion has locked in the stud, as happens when one installs steel fasteners in aluminum/magnesium. Most newbs shear those off when just removing the nuts that are stuck on them due to heat extremes in that area with the other ends stuck in the heads.
If you heat the studs up and quench them with water enough times as to loosen up the corrosion. You should be able to work them out. If not, it is time to drill out the studs once they are cut or broken off. _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
crankbait09 Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016 Posts: 1297 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
|
Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:21 am Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions |
|
|
I'm going back and forth here. I think it's probably best to remove everything down to the cylinders/case, again, and quadruple check the deck height. As I mentioned a few posts ago, I am being told by the person that sold me the heads, that I need to set my deck height at 9.0. When I took the deck height measurements the first few times, on one cylinder, my numbers were all over the place (ranging from mid 6 to high 7's). Not giving me a warm, fuzzy, and consistent feeling. so I thought to myself, it can't be that far off. The cylinders have been put in place with a sealer, and engine put back together. With the manifold not lining up with the ports, I think this is the only option; breaking the engine down again. It's the only thing I can think of that's causing this manifold not to line up.
When adding shims at the base of the cylinder to set deck height, does it matter where the shims are placed since I am not using the traditional paper gasket? I would think, you'd place the shims on the cylinder base, then apply sealer on the shims, then push in to place on the engine case. _________________ 1963 Ragtop |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24670 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
|
Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:51 am Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions |
|
|
One can put shims under the cylinders if the cylinders are new or nearly so. After about 1,000 miles in a set of new cylinders there is too much normal wear of the cylinder wall that the piston rings then have to run into and then up over a step in the cylinder wall. Hitting this step will all too soon damage the rings causing loss of compression.
With adding shims between the cylinders and heads, just one shim per cylinder you have doubled the sealing surfaces that can cause a head leak. Add two shims per and you have triple sealing surfaces. So they are not as good as the cylinder/case shims, that at worse will seep some oil. _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
crankbait09 Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016 Posts: 1297 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
|
Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:59 am Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions |
|
|
Eric&Barb wrote: |
One can put shims under the cylinders if the cylinders are new or nearly so. After about 1,000 miles in a set of new cylinders there is too much normal wear of the cylinder wall that the piston rings then have to run into and then up over a step in the cylinder wall. Hitting this step will all too soon damage the rings causing loss of compression.
With adding shims between the cylinders and heads, just one shim per cylinder you have doubled the sealing surfaces that can cause a head leak. Add two shims per and you have triple sealing surfaces. So they are not as good as the cylinder/case shims, that at worse will seep some oil. |
So are you saying if the cylinders are NOT new, then shims shouldn't be used? _________________ 1963 Ragtop |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24670 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
|
Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions |
|
|
crankbait09 wrote: |
So are you saying if the cylinders are NOT new, then shims shouldn't be used? |
Do you have more than a thousand miles on the P&Cs?? If so that will:
Quote: |
there is too much normal wear of the cylinder wall that the piston rings then have to run into and then up over a step in the cylinder wall. Hitting this step will all too soon damage the rings causing loss of compression. |
So shims between the case and cylinders are ill advised. _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Dangermouse Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005 Posts: 1266 Location: Beautiful New Zealand
|
Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions |
|
|
crankbait09 wrote: |
So why is this manifold not lining up? Something tells me im going to be tearing this engine apart again
|
For what it's worth, that really doesn't look any worse than the single port manifold I reinstalled on my engine just recently; I was able to muscle it back on and once the nuts were torqued down it seemed happy but it took a fair bit of wrangling to get all the nuts started and the flanges seated correctly. New or aftermarket manifold? Again, in my case the manifold had come off, so logically had to be able to go back on again somehow although I'd hadn't replaced or worked the heads other than cleaning. I was using an aftermarket manifold and I think that's probably as good as they get? I would be inclined to revisit trying to 'encourage' it to fit before I went down the disassembly route... _________________ Do not follow me, for I may not lead. Do not lead me, for I may not follow. Do not walk beside me either; actually just bugger off and stand over there will you. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
crankbait09 Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016 Posts: 1297 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
|
Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:17 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions |
|
|
Dangermouse wrote: |
crankbait09 wrote: |
So why is this manifold not lining up? Something tells me im going to be tearing this engine apart again
|
For what it's worth, that really doesn't look any worse than the single port manifold I reinstalled on my engine just recently; I was able to muscle it back on and once the nuts were torqued down it seemed happy but it took a fair bit of wrangling to get all the nuts started and the flanges seated correctly. New or aftermarket manifold? Again, in my case the manifold had come off, so logically had to be able to go back on again somehow although I'd hadn't replaced or worked the heads other than cleaning. I was using an aftermarket manifold and I think that's probably as good as they get? I would be inclined to revisit trying to 'encourage' it to fit before I went down the disassembly route... |
I saw a thread on here today about someone mentioning the aftermarket manifolds not fitting. My manifold is DEFINITELY not stock. Obviously I'd love to not strip the engine down, again. I didn't think to pay attention to how easy it came off the last pair of heads. I will try and wrestle it again, and see how it goes.
Eric&Barb
That just seems off. So if heads were flycut, most people don't shim for deck height? If that was the case, then no one would replace the heads. No? Or do the majority of people replace the cylinders at the same time? I'm very new to this, obviously, but that seems odd. _________________ 1963 Ragtop |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Dangermouse Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005 Posts: 1266 Location: Beautiful New Zealand
|
Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:29 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions |
|
|
Well then I suggest that the variability in the dimensions of aftermarket manifolds is greater than any fitment factor introduced by your flycutting or shimming. Hard to tell from the pic but are those 6mm or 8mm studs? If 8mm then definitely lever it on there, if 6mm use a bit more caution, but I think if you can get the flanges started there's enough flex in the manifold to get it to seat. Just make sure you've installed the seals first! _________________ Do not follow me, for I may not lead. Do not lead me, for I may not follow. Do not walk beside me either; actually just bugger off and stand over there will you. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
crankbait09 Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016 Posts: 1297 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
|
Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:34 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions |
|
|
Seals are definitely in place. They are 6mm studs. I'm heading out to the garage now. I'll see what I come up with. _________________ 1963 Ragtop |
|
Back to top |
|
|
crankbait09 Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016 Posts: 1297 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
|
Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions |
|
|
I would like to add on to this manifold issue. I went back out, and continued to work the manifold in to place. Ever so slightly since I have the 6mm studs.
You know, I never put two and two together.
If the heads were not in the correct location, that means the port, the mounting flange, as well as the manifold studs would not be in the correct place, therefor nothing would be able to line up. Everything would be off. In my case, the ports seem to be in the same location on both sides, the mounting flanges did line up with the studs, but the manifold pipe was not lining up. The mounting flange did line up, but the pipe was stopping it from perfectly sliding in to place. The mounting flange is definitely going to need some force to get it in to place. But I did not continue to force it due to the possibility of breaking/bending the studs.
So that makes me wonder, would a stock manifold fit perfectly in to place?
I don't know if the manifold ever fit tightly prior to the initial removal. I assume I'd hear back firing if it wasn't sealed. right? _________________ 1963 Ragtop |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24670 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
|
Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:59 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions |
|
|
crankbait09 wrote: |
Eric&Barb
That just seems off. So if heads were flycut, most people don't shim for deck height? If that was the case, then no one would replace the heads. No? Or do the majority of people replace the cylinders at the same time? I'm very new to this, obviously, but that seems odd. |
Then they either shim between the head and cylinders or get new P&Cs and shim between the case and cylinders. What seems to be off about that?? _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
crankbait09 Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016 Posts: 1297 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
|
Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions |
|
|
Eric&Barb wrote: |
crankbait09 wrote: |
Eric&Barb
That just seems off. So if heads were flycut, most people don't shim for deck height? If that was the case, then no one would replace the heads. No? Or do the majority of people replace the cylinders at the same time? I'm very new to this, obviously, but that seems odd. |
Then they either shim between the head and cylinders or get new P&Cs and shim between the case and cylinders. What seems to be off about that?? |
OK, that makes sense then. I misunderstood and read in to it _________________ 1963 Ragtop |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24670 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
|
Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:37 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions |
|
|
crankbait09 wrote: |
OK, that makes sense then. I misunderstood and read in to it |
No sweat! _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
crankbait09 Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016 Posts: 1297 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
|
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:34 am Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions |
|
|
Can anyone validate the manifold that I should have?
engine number F0056162
According to the parts catalog, the manifold that I should have is a 113 129 701K, yes? _________________ 1963 Ragtop |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24670 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
|
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:21 am Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions |
|
|
crankbait09 wrote: |
Can anyone validate the manifold that I should have?
engine number F0056162
According to the parts catalog, the manifold that I should have is a 113 129 701K, yes? |
Yes that will work, so will the "N" model. As long as the manifold is for 37bph or higher engine and not a dual port type, it should work. _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
crankbait09 Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016 Posts: 1297 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
|
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:01 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions |
|
|
crankbait09 wrote: |
I noticed with the 3 arm yolk engine stand, it does not allow me to place the cylinder tin on. has anyone figured out a way to install that? I think at this point, in order to do so, I will have to get it to the ground and work on it from there. |
If anyone is still following this thread that can use a little info about the 3 arm yoke engine stand that I mentioned in the quote, here ya go.
I couldn't understand why you'd have an engine stand that could only take you so far, and you'd have to drop the engine off it in order to continue. SO I was thinking about the 1/2 side of the engine.
This past weekend, I removed the engine from the stand and placed it on blocks so I could continue to place the engine tin in place that was restricted while on the stand. Once I did that, I was curious to know what would happen if I were to flip the 3 arm yoke 180 degrees and mount it on the other side of the engine (1/2 side). While doing so I noticed the mounting studs still lined up, and I had a good 1" or so of room between the stand and the engine tin that was once in the way. I cannot find anything that interferes with the stand being on the 1/2 side. Obviously I can't get to the flywheel/main seal. But everything on and around the engine can still be accessed.
_________________ 1963 Ragtop |
|
Back to top |
|
|
crankbait09 Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016 Posts: 1297 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
|
Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:22 am Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions |
|
|
This boggled my mind. Big time. I shouldn't question it, but I am.
I purchased an original manifold, to replace the aftermarket one I currently have. Besides the fact that I hope the original manifold would fit as it should, I'd like to have the original equipment installed as well.
Manifold came in last night. Installed it, and expected to see the same gap issue. I was wrong! The manifold lined up with the ports on the head. The brackets slid over the studs. The brackets lined up, but it definitely needs some effort to get a few threads to pop through, in order to get the nuts started. Once I did that, and I started tightening, everything seemed to fall in to place and I had no major gaps. (that I could see)
So I am going to paint it, then reinstall it so I can continue.
My question is this. I know no one is here in front of the engine to see how it was, and is, but I can only assume the old manifold fit tightly in place. I couldn't hear/feel any issues with possible leaks before. How could an aftermarket manifold be THAT FAR off from the original? That boggles my mind.
If there are gaps/sealing issues, then I will most likely hear backfiring, and have loss of power. right? _________________ 1963 Ragtop |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Mark Evans Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2004 Posts: 1929 Location: Alsea,Oregon
|
Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:27 am Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions |
|
|
There is a long list of aftermarket items that don't usually fit well, fenders, rubbers, light lenses, ect. Aftermarket tins are notorious for poor fitment, so your manifold sounds like it's right in line with most other aftermarket crap. _________________ '63 Ragtop
Last edited by Mark Evans on Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|