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Krochus
Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2017
Posts: 892
Location: NW Arkansas
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 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:06 am Post subject: Re: Draw through Baja build |
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| MMCCARTHY wrote: |
| The worst thing about the internet is we cannot see the other persons face while he is talking , I was not offended but thank you . The float bowl on a side draft is too small volume wise and normal fuel pressure does not deliver enough volume of fuel to keep the float bowl filled while under boost . Raising the fuel pressure beyond normal by boost referencing does allow it to keep fuel bowl full while under boost. I hope ya'll have a Happy and Wonderful New year . Mike McCarthy |
Lord knows I love crazy setups that may not make any sense. But before you do all this cockamamie stuff to a side drought Weber to make it work why don’t you oh I don’t know just put the Holley on there where you can have small primaries for drivability, a vacuum secondary and boost reference power valve AND enough fuel capacity in the carb to just run whatever pump you want.
The rest of the automotive world has figured out and embraced the Holley. You can draw expertise from a base 1000X the size of the VW community for tuning. For whatever reason the VW community has Weber on the brain and honestly after owning a few variations I can honestly say that they’re okay carbs that from a tuning standpoint are kinda shitty.
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1970 Turbo Baja Bug Turbaja 2165 t3/t4 Speeduino sequential EFI LS3 coil on plug ignition
1965 Chevy c30, Microsquirt turbo aluminum 5.3/nv4500 |
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madmike
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 5292
Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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| Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:58 am Post subject: Re: Draw through Baja build |
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That's exactly what I did on my 2276cc , but side draft's are so sexy,, I just had to leave it on my 1915cc,, and It flatass worx on the smaller motor 
_________________
'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
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MMCCARTHY
Samba Member
Joined: June 08, 2005
Posts: 83
Location: Clayton, NC
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| Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:06 am Post subject: Re: Draw through Baja build |
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LOL, my whole car should not do what it does , but it does work well . I have run a Preditor carb (another obsolete idea) , a veritable venturi carb that gives you exactly the cfm that your engine can use from 300-930 cfm and no more . I have run a Holley 600 in "Pro Outlaw " class and ran 6.30's with it . I have been running my 48 Dellorto for a few years now and I really like it . My friend Dave Kawell ran a 5.58 in the 1/8th with the exact same carb setup . My motto is " I have done so much with so little for so long that now I can do anything with nothing " . SEABEES NMCB1 1970-74 . Mike McCarthy
It works well on my 2387 engine also Madmike |
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Maddward
Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2010
Posts: 206
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:47 pm Post subject: Re: Draw through Baja build |
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I just finished installing the black box. I locked out a German 009 with a pertronix I had. I took out the 009, that I limited with a set screw in the weight stop, just in case I need to ever go back. And I really hope I don’t ever have to!
I have the the drivers compartment sealed behind the seats with an aluminum panel on the lower half and plexiglass on the upper half so I can see out of the back. I mounted the box behind the drivers seat on the panel to keep it out of the dust.
I wired it per CB’s instructions that come with the back box on a small cd. I kept the positive 12v wire to the coil/+points separate from the -coil and
-points wires by at least 8”. Except of course where they go into the black box connector and where they meet at the coil. I teed into the manifold vacuum line I have running to my AEM failsafe wideband gauge and plumbed that into the box. I bought a usb to serial cable off amazon for $9 and I had no problems connecting to the box. I loaded the 10psi map that I modified a little and the car fired right up! I ran back with a timing light and barely had to adjust the distributor so it matched the 15 degrees where the box was telling me I was at.
Here’s my first attempt at a map, please don’t hesitate to let me know if you see something that could be better. (I haven’t tuned it for light cruise yet)
It fired up right away, nothing weird, no kick back. I took it for a hot lap around the neighborhood and the driveability is a night and day difference now! I don’t feel any bog from takeoff what so ever. It feels way more responsive everywhere. I’m super excited and can’t wait to tune it more! Especially while I’m cruising in the desert at light throttle, the 24 degrees max advance I had wasn’t helping my head temps at all.
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1959 Baja Bug, A-arm J30 Honda
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=701787&highlight=
Last edited by Maddward on Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Krochus
Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2017
Posts: 892
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: Draw through Baja build |
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I keep telling the people that digital ignition fixes almost all Volkswagen carb drivability problems but NOBODY wants to listen!! Very nice follow up
Do me a favor and try this I wanna see if it works on more vehicles than just mine. At 100 and 105 Kpa run the timing back to 25 degrees then let it ramp up like you have it now after.
Your turbo should make boost a lot harder and faster.
_________________
1970 Turbo Baja Bug Turbaja 2165 t3/t4 Speeduino sequential EFI LS3 coil on plug ignition
1965 Chevy c30, Microsquirt turbo aluminum 5.3/nv4500 |
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Maddward
Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2010
Posts: 206
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: Draw through Baja build |
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Ok Krochus I’ll copy my current map and mess around with the timing like you said and report back as soon as I get some time.
I just got back from my 3rd hotlap around the hood, it’s a completely different car. I can hear the turbo spool a lot more and louder now too. And I’m still only on the 7psi spring in the wastegate, my manual boost controller is wide open at the moment. As good as the vacuum secondary modification sounds with the sidedraft, I might not need to at all now?
I’m off to go search for timing maps and get an idea of higher cruise timing at lower kpa’s. I can see lower oil and head temps in my near future 
_________________
1959 Baja Bug, A-arm J30 Honda
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=701787&highlight= |
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madmike
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 5292
Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:06 am Post subject: Re: Draw through Baja build |
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 Cody, Keep us posted
_________________
'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26785
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:21 pm Post subject: Re: Draw through Baja build |
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| Krochus wrote: |
The rest of the automotive world has figured out and embraced the Holley. You can draw expertise from a base 1000X the size of the VW community for tuning. For whatever reason the VW community has Weber on the brain and honestly after owning a few variations I can honestly say that they’re okay carbs that from a tuning standpoint are kinda shitty. |
You can buy a kit to convert a holley to IDF Emulsion tubes.
I have seen both ways work great, when done right. |
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Maddward
Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2010
Posts: 206
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:36 pm Post subject: Re: Draw through Baja build |
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I just got back from terrorizing the streets for about an hour with my tuning buddy Nathan in the passenger seat. He dialed in the map pretty damn good and I’m totally happy with where it is. My oil temp hovered around 170-180 the entire time. And I did at least 5 full wot pulls through 4th gear. Last trip out after about an hour drive I was around 215-225.
The responsiveness with the higher cruise timing is a world of difference. It’s instant now, no need to wait for the boost to build.
Krochus, I tried the lower timing at 100 and 104 kpa and didn’t notice a huge difference so I left it alone. It’s probably because I have more power everywhere except wot and I just can’t notice!  When I get enough guts to up the boost I’ll try that suggestion again. I’m confident I’ll see the boost build faster since I’ll be working with a little more.
I was also able to drop my idle jets back down some since I was rich on cruise(11.0-11.5). I went back to 50f8 on both sides. I was at 55f9 in one and 50f8 in the other. Im still on 140 mains with 1 f11 and 1 f16 emulsion tubes. Wot was 11.3-11.5 every time and solid. It didn’t climb at all.
I’d like to thank Alstrup too for his map advice!
Here’s my current map:
_________________
1959 Baja Bug, A-arm J30 Honda
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=701787&highlight= |
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Krochus
Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2017
Posts: 892
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:42 pm Post subject: Re: Draw through Baja build |
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That look great!!!
It’s good to hear someone get such good results from an item instantly.
What coil are you using?
_________________
1970 Turbo Baja Bug Turbaja 2165 t3/t4 Speeduino sequential EFI LS3 coil on plug ignition
1965 Chevy c30, Microsquirt turbo aluminum 5.3/nv4500 |
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ralf
Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2008
Posts: 1215
Location: r4
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:53 pm Post subject: Re: Draw through Baja build |
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| Krochus wrote: |
I keep telling the people that digital ignition fixes almost all Volkswagen carb drivability problems but NOBODY wants to listen!! Very nice follow up
Do me a favor and try this I wanna see if it works on more vehicles than just mine. At 100 and 105 Kpa run the timing back to 25 degrees then let it ramp up like you have it now after.
Your turbo should make boost a lot harder and faster.
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cool stuff and i think the OP is getting the hang of it...
the reason NOBODY wants to listen is.. due to simple... lack of willing to adapt
hahaha heck til now we see peeps think efi is over rated LOL and carb can do it.. lol
yes i love carbs but efi tuning (part of my work) is decades ahead
and since this is partly efi (ignition only)
think of it this way.. each vacuum reading/load reference is an ignition curve on its own...
so some one here can imagine.. at light load u can have a 010 like curve.. and medium load a cross between 010 and german 009 and at full load a 009 curve..
not only tat... u can tweak it on a dyno...
turbo is significantly benefiting this ALOT
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Flow Through a Curved Conduit
porting my SP head for my brother's project
https://youtu.be/OS_mVjQuqgk |
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Maddward
Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2010
Posts: 206
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:36 pm Post subject: Re: Draw through Baja build |
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I’m running a flamethrower II 3.0 ohm epoxy filled to go with my ignitor I
I haven’t messed with my plug gap (.028”) and don’t know if I will need to?
_________________
1959 Baja Bug, A-arm J30 Honda
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=701787&highlight= |
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Krochus
Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2017
Posts: 892
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:24 pm Post subject: Re: Draw through Baja build |
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| Maddward wrote: |
I’m running a flamethrower II 3.0 ohm epoxy filled to go with my ignitor I
I haven’t messed with my plug gap (.028”) and don’t know if I will need to? |
With a 3 ohm coil probably not. You essentially have a blue coil. But if the box allows for a lower resistance coil you may want to change to something hotter. Then revisit plug gap.
_________________
1970 Turbo Baja Bug Turbaja 2165 t3/t4 Speeduino sequential EFI LS3 coil on plug ignition
1965 Chevy c30, Microsquirt turbo aluminum 5.3/nv4500 |
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Maddward
Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2010
Posts: 206
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:24 pm Post subject: Re: Draw through Baja build |
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Ok I did some searching and could come up with an answer I liked. How would one calculate the best size venturies/chokes to use in a sidedraft draw through setup? I’m wondering if I’m under sized at the moment?
_________________
1959 Baja Bug, A-arm J30 Honda
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=701787&highlight= |
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madmike
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 5292
Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:45 am Post subject: Re: Draw through Baja build |
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What sizes do you have in it now? still running the 30mm?
_________________
'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
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Maddward
Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2010
Posts: 206
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:52 am Post subject: Re: Draw through Baja build |
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30mm in it now. But I have 34's and 40's also. I know i can just swap to the larger sizes and see where the power has shifted, but I wanted to see if anybody had some math for this equation.
_________________
1959 Baja Bug, A-arm J30 Honda
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=701787&highlight= |
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BFB
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2014
Posts: 1757
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:58 am Post subject: Re: Draw through Baja build |
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see maddward, i told you that black box was badass!
as far as your map, why do you have the timing higher at 700 rmp than at 1000? |
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Krochus
Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2017
Posts: 892
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:39 am Post subject: Re: Draw through Baja build |
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| richardcraineum wrote: |
see maddward, i told you that black box was badass!
as far as your map, why do you have the timing higher at 700 rmp than at 1000? |
I do it because it generates a bit of a feedback loop forcing a more consistent idle. If you want to idle at 1000 you set the timing where you want it there. What a ramp up behind that does is as the rpm drops for whatever reason the timing advances and thus tries to push the rpm back up to where you want it. Also makes the engine harder to stall
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1970 Turbo Baja Bug Turbaja 2165 t3/t4 Speeduino sequential EFI LS3 coil on plug ignition
1965 Chevy c30, Microsquirt turbo aluminum 5.3/nv4500 |
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Maddward
Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2010
Posts: 206
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:00 am Post subject: Re: Draw through Baja build |
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richardcraineum, what Krochus said. When Idling, if the rpm should fall below 1000 for any reason the timing helps it back up to 1000. I found it to help stabilize the idle a lot more.
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1959 Baja Bug, A-arm J30 Honda
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=701787&highlight= |
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Maddward
Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2010
Posts: 206
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:06 am Post subject: Re: Draw through Baja build |
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I'm still loving the black box by the way. Besides adding the turbo itself, it's the best $ I have spent on the car.
So does anybody have advice on what venturies/chokes to run in my 45 dcoe? I still can't find anything about it for a sidedraft setup. I understand cfm and selecting venturies when its a n/a dual carb setup, but not drawthrough.
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1959 Baja Bug, A-arm J30 Honda
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=701787&highlight= |
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