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So the Polizei pulled me over last night.
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YDBD
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:22 pm    Post subject: So the Polizei pulled me over last night. Reply with quote

Just to look at my buggy and see my registration. I only speak a little German, and the officer asked if was United States (US Base) registered, which it is. He also said there was no way a German could register it, which is quite wrong as there is another legal buggy with a German owner from Bayreuth I met up with on an Old Timer Treffen.

Both the officers were very nice, but think the older officer was training the new officer, maybe about 20 years old and was explaining, in his opinion why the car wouldn't be legal here. Which is rather odd due to the amount of street legal quads which far exceed minor infractions that the buggy has.

For the most part the buggy is legal, the worst thing right now is the front tires extend beyond the fenders. The hidden part is the cut and welded chassis and aluminum front beam that would most likely block the buggy from being legal.

But I got away with no tickets, even though my left blinker stopped working...something to tinker with today... Very Happy
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BL3Manx
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:38 pm    Post subject: Re: So the Polizei pulled me over last night. Reply with quote

Volkswagen published and issued instructions on how to cut and weld a beetle chassis to build a fiberglass bodied dune buggy.

Aluminum beams frequently crack and break. They don't belong on any street or off-road driven buggy, only lightweight sandrails used in the dunes. You should remove and replace it as soon as you can

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/1968_floorpan_dunebuggy.php

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manxdavid
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:52 am    Post subject: Re: So the Polizei pulled me over last night. Reply with quote

Karmann GF and Imp (made under license from EMPI) were common in Germany thru the 70s, kits were often sold by VW dealers. They were both short wheelbase.

There in a 'breed standard' EMPI Imp in the VW museum at Wolfsburg.

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Wolfgangdieter
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:16 am    Post subject: Re: So the Polizei pulled me over last night. Reply with quote

In Germany they will take your car off the road if there are rust holes and collision damage too. Very strict but for the safety of pedestrians. Hope you don't have the red poly steering coupler (replacing the OEM rag joint) - those are indeed dangerous. Ha, if you had had a beer keg gas tank you could have offered them a friendly BIER.
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YDBD
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:20 pm    Post subject: Re: So the Polizei pulled me over last night. Reply with quote

Interesting on VW making instructions on how to shorten a pan, but considering it is all in English, I'm sure it was for the US market.

No, I won't be removing the aluminum beam, got four years running on it. Got a quality product.

No red steering coupler either, research, experience and learning from others mistakes is the key.

The pan will also be ok where it is cut and welded, it's been this way for 50 years and there is no rust. It's done it's duty and then some.
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BL3Manx
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:06 pm    Post subject: Re: So the Polizei pulled me over last night. Reply with quote

YDBD wrote:
Interesting on VW making instructions on how to shorten a pan, but considering it is all in English, I'm sure it was for the US market.

No, I won't be removing the aluminum beam, got four years running on it. Got a quality product.



Well despite being sure, you're wrong. It was first published in 1968 in German.

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I drove my Meyers Manx through Germany(stayed at Rhein Main) the Summer of 71, on my way from Athens to Norway and back. I saw a number of other buggies, mostly local brands. Here's a link to material about them. Its also all in German.

https://sowirdsgemacht.com/etzold-archiv/karmann-gf-buggy

I'm sure your aluminum sand rail beam is quality. Its supposed to be mounted by four widely spaced clamps to a sandrail tube frame, each clamp right next to the shock towers, minimizing the stress and fatigue on the aluminum tubes. Mounting it to the chassis framehead increases stress/fatigue. What could possibly go wrong? Its not like it could catastrophically fail at high speed.
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YDBD
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:20 am    Post subject: Re: So the Polizei pulled me over last night. Reply with quote

Thanks for the cool article and history of the buggy scene in Germany and Europe.

You're right, there was some of the instructions in German, but the whole of the instructions were in English as I'm still sure for the US market.

There are many buggies around Europe, just not so many that I've seen in Germany. The one in Bayreuth looks very similar to the Karmann-GF.

I especially liked the part of them not being able to get through TüV until the wheels and tires were covered better. I always chuckle when I see the quads, jeeps, tractors (yes tractors do have different requirements) etc. that are perfectly street legal with little or no fender coverings and travel through towns where there are pedestrians aplenty.

Interesting that there was a telegram from VW that confirms the strength. I might just print this and put it in my album in the buggy.

Thanks for your advice on the aluminum beam, I haven't been able to find any facts on the beam I have that shows broken tubes or shock towers. Do you have any articles or other resources? Thanks for helping out.
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manxdavid
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:51 am    Post subject: Re: So the Polizei pulled me over last night. Reply with quote

YDBD wrote:
You're right, there was some of the instructions in German, but the whole of the instructions were in English as I'm still sure for the US market.


The instructions were first published wholly in German for the German market. The two suggested dimensions in the instructions are for German kits, 273mm for the Karmann GF and 305mm for the Dune Buggy Imp. These two dimensions remained for the English translation a year later.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:05 am    Post subject: Re: So the Polizei pulled me over last night. Reply with quote

YDBD wrote:
I haven't been able to find any facts on the beam I have that shows broken tubes or shock towers. Do you have any articles or other resources?


Send an email and ask Dave Barrett at Manx Chassis

http://www.manxchassis.com/

Operating a motor vehicle you've built is always going to involve risk. Doing it "safely" is an ongoing exercise in risk management. I've found a good general rule is: don't take known and avoidable risk with "critical safety of flight" components. The major structure of your front suspension is an even more critical component than your brakes or steering column
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YDBD
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:25 am    Post subject: Re: So the Polizei pulled me over last night. Reply with quote

That gets confusing as who wrote the first instructions that VW received and then recreated the shortened chassis?

Did VW then write the instructions in German for the German market or translate them to English to validate them for the US market, as EMPI had already done a shortened pan in late 1960 and Bruce Meyers did in '64 (most likely earlier than that)?

not trying to start an argument, just want to find out. Anyone have the VW German complete copy?

Waiting for Dave's reply and going through back issues of Off Road Advertiser, HVW's and VWTrends to find related info before the Interwebs.

Thanks!
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:58 pm    Post subject: Re: So the Polizei pulled me over last night. Reply with quote

YDBD wrote:
Did VW then write the instructions in German for the German market or translate them to English to validate them for the US market


I wouldn't assume that they were translated just for the US market, I'm even not sure that the official instructions were ever released to US dealers, as the US was full of back street chassis choppers by '68. They were certainly released to other English speaking countries though, like England (and the rest of the UK) for example, along with Australia, New Zealand and South Africa.

I have a set of German instructions but don't have a scanner I'm afraid.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:27 pm    Post subject: Re: So the Polizei pulled me over last night. Reply with quote

YDBD wrote:
That gets confusing as who wrote the first instructions that VW received and then recreated the shortened chassis?

Did VW then write the instructions in German for the German market or translate them to English to validate them for the US market, as EMPI had already done a shortened pan in late 1960 and Bruce Meyers did in '64 (most likely earlier than that)?


EMPI started selling their Sportster in 1963.
Bruce first put a Manx body on a shortened VW chassis in late 1965.
Prior to that the first Meyers Manxes were all a fiberglass monocoque body/chassis and didn't use the VW floorpan.

The Gute Fahrt article is in a 1968 Magazine. I'm pretty sure its the Volkswagen factory magazine. Someone who spoke some German translated the article for me a while back. In part he said:

the relevant information starts in the second paragraph that begins with “Die Buggies”:
The Buggies, which come from America, are not tailored for German conditions. Here they can only drive on private or specially marked lands, since the TUV Geschaeftsstelle doesn’t take it off.
"take it off" is a literal translation of the verb, but from the context I think this could be translated as the American buggies weren't compliant with German standards or specifications.
That’s why we decided to develop an Escape ourselves.
[Something something about fun aesthetics]
It’ll be constructed in a way that anyone can build it.
Which is why we used original VW parts where we could.
It made it cheap and easy to repair.
Then it goes into a bunch of technical details on how the process of putting it together. At the end they said they [Gute Fahrt] would be happy to assist builders with advice and support.


So basically the official instructions were developed by Volkswagen at least in part for the Gute Fahrt magazine project in 1968.

In 1969 they published the instructions in English

Meyers included multi-page illustrated instructions on how to shorten a VW chassis with their kits, definitely in 67(I got a set with mine) and knowing Bruce I'm pretty sure he provided some kind of chassis shortening instructions probably back as far as late 65.

The first issue of Dune Buggies and Hot VWs magazine which was printed in 1967 had a 5 page article with photos on how to shorten a VW chassis.

VW probably used the instructions and articles which were already available for reference when they wrote theirs
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YDBD
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:10 pm    Post subject: Re: So the Polizei pulled me over last night. Reply with quote

Awesome background info. Yes England did have quite a few production models, I always forget how many varieties the British put together.

Thanks for providing the information. I get a lot of thumbs up and waves in Germany when driving the buggy around and I think the officers still just wanted a closer look.

The only answer I got from Dave is:
"I am not condemning aluminum beams and it's fine with me if you run one I have seen several of them broken on often driven buggies I will not build a chassis to accept aluminum beam that's all I can tell you. Thanks David"

So still no definitive proof and I've seen two bent and cracked steel beams in 35 years, but people still use them...

Again thank you for your advice BL3Manx and manxdavid.
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'73 Personenkraftwagen Type 182 "Thing"
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:34 am    Post subject: Re: So the Polizei pulled me over last night. Reply with quote

YDBD wrote:

The only answer I got from Dave is:
"I am not condemning aluminum beams and it's fine with me if you run one I have seen several of them broken on often driven buggies I will not build a chassis to accept aluminum beam that's all I can tell you. Thanks David"

So still no definitive proof and I've seen two bent and cracked steel beams in 35 years, but people still use them...



You've seen a couple bent and cracked steel beams but none which broke. You're aware that with enough force, heavy wall mild steel can be bent practically into a pretzel without weakening, in fact it can actually strengthen it.

On the other hand the T6 hardened aluminum in the beam will be weakened if its bent even a small amount.

Dave, who I'm pretty sure builds more chassis for fiberglass buggies than anyone, certainly chassis which are put to severe use, he tells you he's seen several aluminum beams broken and he won't build a chassis to use one. That's not enough of a warning. OK then
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YDBD
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:19 pm    Post subject: Re: So the Polizei pulled me over last night. Reply with quote

Ok..

Again you rely on what you heard and your source could only provide that he's seen several of them broken, but no mention of catastrophic failure and the beams often break. On those topics I could not find any information, that still doesn't mean it doesn't happen, it just doesn't happen often.

BL3Manx, you've been around, I understand that, but please put facts in your statements.

You're advice is usually on par, again based on your experience it is good advice; don't be so condemning that it is the only advice and don't assume other VW enthusiasts are idiots for ignoring your advice.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2022 9:18 pm    Post subject: Re: So the Polizei pulled me over last night. Reply with quote

If aluminum was okay to use in a torsion beam tube don't you think VW would have used it if only to reduce weight?
Aluminum has it's uses but this is not one of them.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2022 4:49 am    Post subject: Re: So the Polizei pulled me over last night. Reply with quote

Cost.

It seems to me that it would be less likely to break on the street than the pounding it would take off road. Sorry no data to back that up, just a common sense thing.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2022 9:09 am    Post subject: Re: So the Polizei pulled me over last night. Reply with quote

DesignBuild wrote:
If aluminum was okay to use in a torsion beam tube don't you think VW would have used it if only to reduce weight?
Aluminum has it's uses but this is not one of them.

There is a bit of a weight difference between a beach buggy, and a stock Bug with 4 people in it and a frunk full of stuff. YDBD has to decide if it is safe or not and has some experience as a guide. The front axle weight on my buggy was 370 lb. with a stock steel front beam. At that low weight an aluminum beam wouldn't scare me.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2022 8:40 pm    Post subject: Re: So the Polizei pulled me over last night. Reply with quote

DesignBuild wrote:
If aluminum was okay to use in a torsion beam tube don't you think VW would have used it if only to reduce weight?
Aluminum has it's uses but this is not one of them.


VW probably was not interested in losing weight. Also, metallurgy has advanced quite a bit in the last 50-60 years, with different grades of aluminum, casting, extruding, CNC milling and welding processes.

Case in point-bicycle frames.

all in all it is now a moot point as I switched back to a steel beam but narrowed to fit the tires under the fenders.
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'64 baja
'60 dune buggy
'73 Personenkraftwagen Type 182 "Thing"
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2022 5:11 am    Post subject: Re: So the Polizei pulled me over last night. Reply with quote

I am taking mine in for a safety inspection today. After insuring it for 5 years the insurance company suddenly thinks it needs a safety! I talked to the one doing the inspections and his concerns are tires, lights, brakes, steering, seat belts, and horn. It seems things here are open somewhat to interpretation so we will see.

There are a few areas of concern. I don't have reverse lights. This transaxle doesn't have a switch, the serial # indicates it's a '67 so I think, if I recall, they came out in '68. Buggy is registered as a '76 so...

Then there is no rear seat belts, windshield washers, not heat or defrost... so we will see...

We were stopped by the police this summer for the first time ever in this Buggy. The Missus was driving and all he wanted was for her to "blow here" in his little hand held checker. It was all clear so she got the "Nice car! Have a nice day!"

He didn't check for a driver's licence, insurance or registration!
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