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Krochus
Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2017
Posts: 892
Location: NW Arkansas
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 Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:40 pm Post subject: Digitally controlled ignition CB Black Box vs Megajolt |
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Just as the title states to allow for a fully programmable spark table for a turbocharged engine to maximize drivability, mpg and boostification.
Now I realize both systems essentially share all the same functionality. But I have a couple of concerns due to weather resistance because my Baja has a completely open engine bay.
I like the idea of everything being self contained in the distributor and starting with a new unit not relying on a clapped out 009 and ignightorII. But I I worry about the electronics vs mounting the Black Box in the trunk.
How well are the magnaspark units closed up against moisture?
Last edited by Krochus on Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3462
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: Digitally controlled ignition CB Black Box vs Magnaspark Digital |
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I asked that same question and went with the Black box for the sake of putting electronics not just out of reach from water, but out of the heat.
Also, if the black box fails, you can switch a few plugs, adjust distributor and drive home on initial timing. If the digital takes a crap, you have to do a distributor swap. |
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Krochus
Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2017
Posts: 892
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:35 am Post subject: Re: Digitally controlled ignition CB Black Box vs Megajolt |
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I’m really thinking about going with a distrubitor less system based on the EDIS ford now.
I’ve been crunching numbers and I can do that with a magajolt controller for very little more money that also has the capacity to run some outputs possibly even triggering a meth system
What is your opinion on either? I will have to make a dummy distrubitor so I can still run my mechanical fuel pump but ditching the dizzy will definitely clean up a very crowded place on my engine |
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gprudenciop
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Joined: July 06, 2008
Posts: 606
Location: portland or
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:43 am Post subject: Re: Digitally controlled ignition CB Black Box vs Megajolt |
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Bite the bullet and throw in a megasquirt! You will have so many options it will blow your mind! Than have them all show on your cell phone on a dash mount.
_________________
Never look down at anybody unless you are helping them up..
Loaning someone your strength instead of reminding them of their weakness = kindness.. |
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clonebug
Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2005
Posts: 4027
Location: NW Washington
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:51 am Post subject: Re: Digitally controlled ignition CB Black Box vs Megajolt |
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
| Bite the bullet and throw in a megasquirt! You will have so many options it will blow your mind! Than have them all show on your cell phone on a dash mount. |
X2 on Megsquirt.
Get a ver. 3.0 board and a MS-1 ECU and keep the extras to a bare minimum.
That will give you ignition control and combined with Mario's Crank trigger setup you have an excellent system that allows you to go to FI anytime you want to add it.
Add a CLT and a IAT and you can log temps and control timing vs intake temps.
You will only need a simple 37 din D plug for the ecu and don't need a relay board at all. You can add stuff later if you want.
It will cost a little more up front than Megajolt but you never have to replace it because you can just add to it.
Adding options makes it cost more though.......
Use the ign4 coil due to plug wires being easier to make.
EDIS coils use a special coil plug specific to them which forces you to buy ford plug wires and shorten them on the spark plug side.
The wiring harness would be really simple to make or Mario could easily whip one up for you.
I prefer to control WI with a pressure switch or two. It's cheap, reliable and bullet proof.
_________________
| vwracerdave wrote: |
Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see. |
| Paul.H wrote: |
| That one line on that chart is probably better info than you can get from this place in a month |
My Megasquirt Fuel Injection Turbo Buggy Build
Water/Alcohol Injection
Audi TT intercooler
Upgraded to MS3Pro-Evo
EcuMaster PMU16
ECUMaster ADU5 Digital Dash
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=127936 |
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Krochus
Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2017
Posts: 892
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:37 am Post subject: Re: Digitally controlled ignition CB Black Box vs Megajolt |
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I will probably just run a Dodge Neon coil pack rather than messy weird ford wires. Then any magnaspark based wire set would work
I’ve went ahead and went with the Megajolt. I looked into buying a microsquirt v3 for ignition only but honestly that’s a lot of project creep. I don’t envisage fuel injecting this car. The fueling with the dual blow through HPMX 40’s simply isn’t leaving anything to be desired it’s that good.
Even the boost referenced mechanical fuel pump is providing excellent results |
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gprudenciop
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2008
Posts: 606
Location: portland or
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:19 am Post subject: Re: Digitally controlled ignition CB Black Box vs Megajolt |
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megasquirt option......
1.Intake air sensor so you can retard timing when high.
2.oil temp.
3 oil pressure.
4. Meth injection
5.launch control
6.oxygen sensor
7 data log..
8.Yukon coils..
9.Intercooler fan and pump control
10.map sensor
11.egt
12. immobilizer
13. Coolant sensor/head temp
14.boost control
These are some of the things you can do without even getting to the fuel part!!!!!!
_________________
Never look down at anybody unless you are helping them up..
Loaning someone your strength instead of reminding them of their weakness = kindness.. |
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clonebug
Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2005
Posts: 4027
Location: NW Washington
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:04 pm Post subject: Re: Digitally controlled ignition CB Black Box vs Megajolt |
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| Krochus wrote: |
I will probably just run a Dodge Neon coil pack rather than messy weird ford wires. Then any magnaspark based wire set would work
I’ve went ahead and went with the Megajolt. I looked into buying a microsquirt v3 for ignition only but honestly that’s a lot of project creep. I don’t envisage fuel injecting this car. The fueling with the dual blow through HPMX 40’s simply isn’t leaving anything to be desired it’s that good.
Even the boost referenced mechanical fuel pump is providing excellent results |
Do you realize that Megajolt uses the Ford EDIS Module and coil along with the VR sensor which is specific to that setup?
As far as I know...EDIS modules are not compatible with other coils due to the module controlling the dwell to that EDIS coil.
EDIS is 1990's technology which makes it almost 30 years old already...... 
For about a hundred bucks more you could have been into a MS-1 and used almost any 4 post wasted spark coil and had all the options that Megasquirt gives.
You might have a little difficulty finding used modules and coils due to the Obama era "Cash for Clunkers" program along with the high scrap prices of metal in the late 2000's.
I think I still have a Module and possibly a coil along with the plugs for said items.
It looks like the new higher priced version of MJ has overcome the rev limit issue due to the module controlling spark.
Let us know how it works out for you......I almost went with a MJ but thankfully Mario talked me into a used MS-1 Ver. 2.2 with EDIS that served me well for 2 years as ignition only and another year as FI and crankfire ignition.
_________________
| vwracerdave wrote: |
Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see. |
| Paul.H wrote: |
| That one line on that chart is probably better info than you can get from this place in a month |
My Megasquirt Fuel Injection Turbo Buggy Build
Water/Alcohol Injection
Audi TT intercooler
Upgraded to MS3Pro-Evo
EcuMaster PMU16
ECUMaster ADU5 Digital Dash
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=127936 |
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Krochus
Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2017
Posts: 892
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:32 pm Post subject: Re: Digitally controlled ignition CB Black Box vs Megajolt |
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| clonebug wrote: |
| Krochus wrote: |
I will probably just run a Dodge Neon coil pack rather than messy weird ford wires. Then any magnaspark based wire set would work
I’ve went ahead and went with the Megajolt. I looked into buying a microsquirt v3 for ignition only but honestly that’s a lot of project creep. I don’t envisage fuel injecting this car. The fueling with the dual blow through HPMX 40’s simply isn’t leaving anything to be desired it’s that good.
Even the boost referenced mechanical fuel pump is providing excellent results |
Do you realize that Megajolt uses the Ford EDIS Module and coil along with the VR sensor which is specific to that setup?
As far as I know...EDIS modules are not compatible with other coils due to the module controlling the dwell to that EDIS coil.
EDIS is 1990's technology which makes it almost 30 years old already......
For about a hundred bucks more you could have been into a MS-1 and used almost any 4 post wasted spark coil and had all the options that Megasquirt gives.
You might have a little difficulty finding used modules and coils due to the Obama era "Cash for Clunkers" program along with the high scrap prices of metal in the late 2000's.
I think I still have a Module and possibly a coil along with the plugs for said items.
It looks like the new higher priced version of MJ has overcome the rev limit issue due to the module controlling spark.
Let us know how it works out for you......I almost went with a MJ but thankfully Mario talked me into a used MS-1 Ver. 2.2 with EDIS that served me well for 2 years as ignition only and another year as FI and crankfire ignition. |
A coil is a coil they are the dumb part of the system. As long as the ohms are somewhat close which the Chrysler coil is. Do some googling my friend and you’ll find people running everything from Buick 3.8 coils to funky Toyota Paseo. COP coils with a wire to the other plug with the EDIS
The modules are getting a little obsolete. I’m about to buy one and I’ll give the junkyards a scrounging to hopefully get a spare or two |
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clonebug
Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2005
Posts: 4027
Location: NW Washington
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:37 am Post subject: Re: Digitally controlled ignition CB Black Box vs Megajolt |
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You need the info not me....it would be like googling info on an 009...... 
I've done the PIP/SAW long ago.......while it's a great setup it has it's limits too and I've moved on....... you will probably find those limits too once you move up past 8 lbs boost.
_________________
| vwracerdave wrote: |
Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see. |
| Paul.H wrote: |
| That one line on that chart is probably better info than you can get from this place in a month |
My Megasquirt Fuel Injection Turbo Buggy Build
Water/Alcohol Injection
Audi TT intercooler
Upgraded to MS3Pro-Evo
EcuMaster PMU16
ECUMaster ADU5 Digital Dash
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=127936 |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20379
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:15 am Post subject: Re: Digitally controlled ignition CB Black Box vs Megajolt |
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Help me to understand.... I another thread I mentioned Megajolt and wasted spark and everybody yelled at me that it was trash and poor performance and you can't do "this" or "that" with it....
In this thread it's the best thing since sliced bread other than EDIS modules are getting a bit scares or expensive....
ONly thing I find disconcerting about megajolt is fact it needs parts that were manufactured between 1990 and 2000, If Megajolt were my baby I would redesign and make it semi sequential and direct fire to wasted spark coils or paired COP (CNP) coils...
But a crank fire, ignition only box is very appealing...
Compufire tried it years ago, only problem it was not very tuneable and relied on dist body as trigger system...
Dazed and confused..
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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Krochus
Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2017
Posts: 892
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:26 am Post subject: Re: Digitally controlled ignition CB Black Box vs Megajolt |
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| clonebug wrote: |
You need the info not me....it would be like googling info on an 009......
I've done the PIP/SAW long ago.......while it's a great setup it has it's limits too and I've moved on....... you will probably find those limits too once you move up past 8 lbs boost. |
I will not be moving the boost up that far. The motor can’t handle it and there’s just no need. It’s already crazy quick at 4.
My end goal is 6
The only reason I’m going digital at all is primarily to get some part throttle advance back. As I have been daily driving this car 50 miles a day
DALE Part of what you see may be due to the fact that some older versions of Megajolt lacked some key features such as a rev limiter that this latest version has. It’s a mere $200 for the box. It’s hard to get very hurt on the purchase. |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20379
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:25 am Post subject: Re: Digitally controlled ignition CB Black Box vs Megajolt |
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| Krochus wrote: |
| clonebug wrote: |
You need the info not me....it would be like googling info on an 009......
I've done the PIP/SAW long ago.......while it's a great setup it has it's limits too and I've moved on....... you will probably find those limits too once you move up past 8 lbs boost. |
I will not be moving the boost up that far. The motor can’t handle it and there’s just no need. It’s already crazy quick at 4.
My end goal is 6
The only reason I’m going digital at all is primarily to get some part throttle advance back. As I have been daily driving this car 50 miles a day
DALE Part of what you see may be due to the fact that some older versions of Megajolt lacked some key features such as a rev limiter that this latest version has. It’s a mere $200 for the box. It’s hard to get very hurt on the purchase. |
I understand cost and features of MJ box, and another $50 to $100 for EDIS module and maybe another $50 to 100 for VR sensor setup...
But where I got slammed was in the performance aspect, not actually the cost of setup.... Everybody was all over me like odor on dung that wasted spark performance (technology) was crap...
For most part I am getting really gun shy about mentioning digital ignition and EFI, but I studied it for over a year intending to put EFI on race car, but before I got to far into project ( actually had most everything but ECU) I retired from Auto-X and sold car, the other funny think is what I learned seems to work for the guys on STF (leaps and bounds ahead of sambaites), here I get told, not possible, won't work, got facts wrong and a few other crap objectionable statements.... It's amazing how attitudes and knowledge base varies on the two sites.... And then there is the rest of the world that uses MJ or MS....
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...
Last edited by Dale M. on Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:43 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Krochus
Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2017
Posts: 892
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:28 am Post subject: Re: Digitally controlled ignition CB Black Box vs Megajolt |
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| Dale M. wrote: |
| Krochus wrote: |
| clonebug wrote: |
You need the info not me....it would be like googling info on an 009......
I've done the PIP/SAW long ago.......while it's a great setup it has it's limits too and I've moved on....... you will probably find those limits too once you move up past 8 lbs boost. |
I will not be moving the boost up that far. The motor can’t handle it and there’s just no need. It’s already crazy quick at 4.
My end goal is 6
The only reason I’m going digital at all is primarily to get some part throttle advance back. As I have been daily driving this car 50 miles a day
DALE Part of what you see may be due to the fact that some older versions of Megajolt lacked some key features such as a rev limiter that this latest version has. It’s a mere $200 for the box. It’s hard to get very hurt on the purchase. |
I understand cost and features of MJ box, but another $50 to $100 for EDIS module and maybe another $50 to 100 for VR sensor setup...
But where I got slammed was in the performance aspect, not actually the cost of setup.... Everybody was all over me like odor on dung that wasted spark performance (technology) was crap...
Dale |
A lot of it is my way is the best way as with anything.
If you are ditching the distrubitor you are already light years ahead of the game. Any perceived improvement from one DIS system to the next is really just splitting hairs.
In OEM COP replaced DIS primarily just to eliminate the plug wires
For me the the advantage over the black box were clear.
Factors leading me to not get a ms
No plans to ever EFI
Less invasive wiring
Better wiring schematics online
No serial port FAIL, USB BABY!
Price.
4x outputs
1x input
Rev limiter
And a shift lite
Basically the Megajolt does all work he stuff I will need. |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20379
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:54 am Post subject: Re: Digitally controlled ignition CB Black Box vs Megajolt |
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Agree totally.....What get's me into trouble is things like sitting here thinking would EDIS 8 (for 8 cylinder engines ) fire individual coils sequentially (with its 4 output lines) on 4 cylinder motor?....... But then timing sequences internal to EDIS module and VR sensor are probably all wrong or someone would have already done it...
Really don't understand the negativity to wasted spark, can not see where firing a plug in dead cylinder (TDC of exhaust stroke) if going to make performance terrible... To me it's like trying to light a match in a vacuum... IT it (wasted spark) did not work well car manufacturers would not have used it....
Also with EDIS modules becoming harder to find I think I would want spare, tested module sitting on shelf with various other spares...
Oh well....
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7214
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:57 am Post subject: Re: Digitally controlled ignition CB Black Box vs Megajolt |
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Dale. Wasted spark is ok on engines with very low cam duration like a stock ACVW cam or other stock Ford and (Mazda) I think it was that shared this technology at the time.
When you start adding duration to the cam, which also means more overlap, the wasted spark will actually burn some of the incoming mix that were designed for the next powerstroke. That costs power, seriusly, AND it makes for a very funky idle. Almost impossible to get straight. - Some dont care and dont realize the powerloss, but once you put such an engine to the test you´ll see it immediately.
Personally I simply loathe the MS1. To me its just plain stupid. But yes, if you haver the time and patience to work around all the idiosyncracies you can get quite a few options for cheap. If I was to use an MS ignition part I would definitely jump directly to a 2 or preferably 3. The version 3 is actually not bad at all.
Like some say and have done, COP is possible, but takes up a lot of space where there is very limited space already. IMHO the CNP solution is better for us, at least when port on port induction is used. next winter I will try and dive into this matter and see if its possible to come up with something smart without breaking the bank. - Or maybe someone will beat me to it. Who knows.
T |
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Krochus
Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2017
Posts: 892
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: Digitally controlled ignition CB Black Box vs Megajolt |
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Well I have my hands on one EDIS-4 module after a quick and melty hot trek through one of two local pull a parts.
$15
I’m going to go to another in a few days. Plus I’m trying to work a deal to buy a basket of EDIS-4 goodies online. |
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chrisflstf
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Joined: February 10, 2004
Posts: 3439
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: Digitally controlled ignition CB Black Box vs Megajolt |
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| Car manufacturers used wasted spark because of cost. It was cheaper. To me, firing a plug on the exhaust cycle is just dumb |
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Krochus
Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2017
Posts: 892
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: Digitally controlled ignition CB Black Box vs Megajolt |
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| chrisflstf wrote: |
| Car manufacturers used wasted spark because of cost. It was cheaper. To me, firing a plug on the exhaust cycle is just dumb |
I’m sorry but that’s just a dumb assertion that ignores the fact that these systems replaced distrubitors. They were a massive improvement that was certainly not cheaper to implement at the time
So you waste a spark! Big deal it’s not like you are batch firing injectors which actually wastes something (fuel) |
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Krochus
Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2017
Posts: 892
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: Digitally controlled ignition CB Black Box vs Megajolt |
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I’m all in on the Megajolt now. Box is en route, trigger wheel and CPS is mounted and I have 3x spare edis-4 modules
I’m going to mount the coil above the transmission behind the starter on the bottom of the body. I decided to stay with a Ford EDIS coil pack it turned out that plug wires is going to be a non issue f150 4.2 plug wires are crazy long for my alternate mount location and VW air boots off old plug wires slip right on.
I have not taken a picture yet but I also have cut down an 009 into a plug to keep my distrubitor gear in place and run my mechanical fuel pump
Preparing to drill for the trigger wheel
Sensor mount. Simple but effective
Mounted wheel. The solid pulley really helps
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