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67 Sunroof
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2014
Posts: 1836
Location: Salisbury, MD
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 Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:30 am Post subject: Re: Headlights - Duuude, confused, disappointed, and what the heck? |
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| Yes I’m using the clear “hella” lenses. Thanks for shedding some “light” on the subject...haha |
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glutamodo 
The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004
Posts: 26320
Location: Douglas, WY
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:35 am Post subject: Re: Headlights - Duuude, confused, disappointed, and what the heck? |
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Yeah, I saw the initial image of a fluted outer lens and then did a CNTRL-F search of the page for the term "fluted" and didn't see any matches, which is what prompted my warning/comment about avoiding combining fluted lenses.
_________________
Andy T.
IMAGE NOTE: It has been noted that Chrome based browsers may have issues in displaying my vast image library, which use non-secure links and are on an FTP server. Images should still be viewable if the link is clicked though.
I do not know how to fix this. All I can say is it all works fine for me with what I use, Firefox. |
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67 Sunroof
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2014
Posts: 1836
Location: Salisbury, MD
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:18 pm Post subject: Re: Headlights - Duuude, confused, disappointed, and what the heck? |
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I appreciate your help. I ALWAYS appreciate your help!!!
I just realized I ran the wrong wires from the wire works harness into the headlight bucket too-crap..
I ran the blk/grn and blk/yel? Into the bucket but they were for the BLINKERS which I am mounting behind the horn grilles.
I believe I need to run wht/red and wht/blk? Wires for the running lights in the headlights. Then can I just tie the ground from the running lights into the brown (ground from the headlights)?
The wire works harness appears to be pretty darn nice and easy to follow. Not many wires in the harness anyway😊 |
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theastronaut
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2007
Posts: 1631
Location: Anderson, SC
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:05 pm Post subject: Re: Headlights - Duuude, confused, disappointed, and what the heck? |
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The beam pattern is going to be bad anyway. Those are cheaply made and poorly designed Autopal housings that are known to be of questionable performance to begin with. Look at the fluting... its pretty much identical all over, compared to a Cibie or Hella lens with greatly varying fluting over the different sections of the lens to properly shape the beam pattern.
Then they have LED's added in place of a H4 bulb to further distort the optics... it's illegal to convert halogen reflectors to LED bulbs because the beam pattern is distorted enough to create unsafe amounts of glare for oncoming drivers, and an unsafe beam pattern for the driver. These are a bad idea all around, and I'm surprised Everett allows an illegal product to be advertised and sold here.
Just because it has "DOT" on the lens doesn't mean it actually meets DOT standards. The DOT doesn't actually "approve" headlight performance, they just give the standards and it's up to the manufacures to make a light that's within spec. I'm sure there's plenty of R&D spent on a pair of cheap $19.95 obo (eBay price) Autopal lights from India to make sure they actually conform to US DOT standards...
Legitimate 7" LED headlights like JW Speaker that actually conform to DOT or ECE standards cost around $500 a pair. There's a reason these are so much cheaper.
_________________
Strive for perfection in everything. Take the best that exist and make it better. If it doesn't exist, create it. Accept nothing nearly right or good enough."
-Sir Henry Royce, co-founder of Rolls-Royce
'64 Beetle Sunroof OG Bahama Blue
'63 Beetle Vert
'66 Beetle
'88 Festiva L
'89 Festiva L
'64 Chevy C10
'66 Chevy C10 |
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67 Sunroof
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2014
Posts: 1836
Location: Salisbury, MD
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: Headlights - Duuude, confused, disappointed, and what the heck? |
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The initial impressions I got were that they were very poorly made. I’m not very impressed with the quality and feel they are overpriced for what they sell for.
I wouldn’f shame Everett for allowing them to sell on the samba. He isn’t able to test every available product from every seller here.
It’s like everything else-up to the buyer to decide if they are going to buy the product and return it if it doesn’t meet their standards. In this case I paid a lot less than they sell for so I felt as though I was willing to try them out. I searched for reviews on them beforehand and only came up with a poster that recommended them and spoke highly of them so I bit.... |
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Mos6502
Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2015
Posts: 725
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:29 pm Post subject: Re: Headlights - Duuude, confused, disappointed, and what the heck? |
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| theastronaut wrote: |
| The beam pattern is going to be bad anyway. Those are cheaply made and poorly designed Autopal housings that are known to be of questionable performance to begin with. Look at the fluting... its pretty much identical all over, compared to a Cibie or Hella lens with greatly varying fluting over the different sections of the lens to properly shape the beam pattern. |
They look that way because they have a DOT spec lens. The Hella DOT lenses look virtually identical:
The Cibie and Hella lamps you're thinking of are E-code, and technically illegal for on-road use in the U.S.
The Autopal lamps are cheap, but it has little to do with the design of the lens, more the materials.
| Quote: |
| Just because it has "DOT" on the lens doesn't mean it actually meets DOT standards. The DOT doesn't actually "approve" headlight performance, they just give the standards and it's up to the manufacures to make a light that's within spec. |
Well yeah, they kind of have to work to spec if they want to put the DOT marking on it.
| Quote: |
| I'm sure there's plenty of R&D spent on a pair of cheap $19.95 obo (eBay price) Autopal lights from India to make sure they actually conform to US DOT standards... |
Probably no R&D necessary, just copy the Hella unit. How old do you think any patents are for the DOT Hella lens? Likely too old to protect against a direct copy.
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| Legitimate 7" LED headlights like JW Speaker that actually conform to DOT or ECE standards cost around $500 a pair. There's a reason these are so much cheaper. |
The LED units he is using are pretty expensive... |
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67 Sunroof
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2014
Posts: 1836
Location: Salisbury, MD
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:55 am Post subject: Re: Headlights - Duuude, confused, disappointed, and what the heck? |
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The H5000’s has the Philips Luxeon Z ES leds.
They are supposed to be decent quality. I guess I’ll see soon. |
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Cali_Army_Guy
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2015
Posts: 2094
Location: Stockton, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:34 am Post subject: Re: Headlights - Duuude, confused, disappointed, and what the heck? |
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FWIW I have the VC4000 kit in my ‘66. I’ve daily driven this car for over a year with them and ZERO people have flashed me. They put out a ton of light. I’ll never run a different headlight in a vintage car again.
_________________
2015 VW Passat Wolfsburg Edition
1966 VW Beetle - Sold |
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theastronaut
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2007
Posts: 1631
Location: Anderson, SC
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:14 pm Post subject: Re: Headlights - Duuude, confused, disappointed, and what the heck? |
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| Mos6502 wrote: |
They look that way because they have a DOT spec lens. The Hella DOT lenses look virtually identical:
The Cibie and Hella lamps you're thinking of are E-code, and technically illegal for on-road use in the U.S.
The Autopal lamps are cheap, but it has little to do with the design of the lens, more the materials. |
There are numerous differences in the fluting design, it wsn't just copied from Hella. Also notice the lack of glare sheild; you have full view of the bulb... that causes glare, which will be even worse with an LED bulb. The "technically illegal" Cibie/Hella e-code headlights both have glare sheilds, as do the DOT Hella H4. Cibie Z-Beams have both DOT and e-code markings on the lens, I believe they're the only 7" H4 headlight that ever conformed to both standards.
| Quote: |
| Well yeah, they kind of have to work to spec if they want to put the DOT marking on it. |
Again, the DOT doesn't check to make sure any aftermarket headlight actually conforms to their standards, so anyone can mark anything as "DOT" without being checked. The amount of garbage lighting passed off as "DOT Approved" is a joke, just search "7" HID DOT" on ebay to see for yourself. HID/LED bulbs in H4 housings are illegal, so of course they're not DOT approved, but they're stamped DOT anyway.
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| Probably no R&D necessary, just copy the Hella unit. How old do you think any patents are for the DOT Hella lens? Likely too old to protect against a direct copy. |
As stated above, it's not a direct copy.
| Quote: |
| The LED units he is using are pretty expensive... |
Autopal headlights on their own are known to be cheap junk, check their reviews at candlepowerforums.com. They're as cheap as $19.95 on eBay for a pair. Expensive doesn't mean they'll work well. I bought a set of $450 Dapper Lighting V2 7" headlights for my Miata and they ended up being H1 halogen projectors with rebased HID bulbs. The beam pattern was horrible due using HID bulbs in a halogen projector and they even had instructions on how to bend the base of the bulbs to center the hot spot of the beam pattern. The end user is responsible for centering the bulb in the $450 buck headlight... some great quality control going on there. I ended up sending them back because my 30+ year old Cibie Z-Beams had much better lighting on both high and low beam. They admitted that they knew there were space limitations in most older cars so they had to use smaller/shorter halogen projectors which hurt the performance of the lights. So "The most TRUSTED name in Classic Car Lighting" sells expensive lights that have known limitations because they use mismatched parts so they fit old cars. Sounds a lot like the headlights in question here.
_________________
Strive for perfection in everything. Take the best that exist and make it better. If it doesn't exist, create it. Accept nothing nearly right or good enough."
-Sir Henry Royce, co-founder of Rolls-Royce
'64 Beetle Sunroof OG Bahama Blue
'63 Beetle Vert
'66 Beetle
'88 Festiva L
'89 Festiva L
'64 Chevy C10
'66 Chevy C10 |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34009
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: Headlights - Duuude, confused, disappointed, and what the heck? |
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So does anyone make a GOOD LED 7" retrofit headlamp? My requirements for "good" include:
- Has correct sharp E-code light pattern on low and high beam
- Uses easily found replacement bulb
- Fits a legacy VW bucket (Type 3 in my case)
- Doesn't look too modern
- Not priced like gold |
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theastronaut
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2007
Posts: 1631
Location: Anderson, SC
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:39 pm Post subject: Re: Headlights - Duuude, confused, disappointed, and what the heck? |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
So does anyone make a GOOD LED 7" retrofit headlamp? My requirements for "good" include:
- Has correct sharp E-code light pattern on low and high beam
- Uses easily found replacement bulb
- Fits a legacy VW bucket (Type 3 in my case)
- Doesn't look too modern
- Not priced like gold |
None that I'm aware of. The LED's in legitimate 7" LED e-code headlights aren't drop-in replaceable. They all look too modern/weird. None that perform good are less than $300. Check out candlepowerforums.com, they're good at keeping up with the latest in automotive lighting.
Cibie H4's are around $100 shipped from Amazon, good bulbs are about $20, and you can make your own relay harness for around $50 bucks. They have excelent light output on both low/high beams. The lens is fluted so it looks at home on old cars. That's the best option without spending $300+ on legitimate 7" LED's that look weird in an old car.
_________________
Strive for perfection in everything. Take the best that exist and make it better. If it doesn't exist, create it. Accept nothing nearly right or good enough."
-Sir Henry Royce, co-founder of Rolls-Royce
'64 Beetle Sunroof OG Bahama Blue
'63 Beetle Vert
'66 Beetle
'88 Festiva L
'89 Festiva L
'64 Chevy C10
'66 Chevy C10 |
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Mos6502
Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2015
Posts: 725
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: Headlights - Duuude, confused, disappointed, and what the heck? |
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| theastronaut wrote: |
There are numerous differences in the fluting design, it wsn't just copied from Hella. Also notice the lack of glare sheild; you have full view of the bulb... that causes glare, which will be even worse with an LED bulb. |
I'm not going to bother addressing the rest of your post, because you can clearly see in the OP that the autopal DOT lamps have a bulb shield. That and the 7" Cibie Z beams do not have a DOT marking on them (or, at least, the currently available ones do not). |
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glutamodo
The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004
Posts: 26320
Location: Douglas, WY
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:03 pm Post subject: Re: Headlights - Duuude, confused, disappointed, and what the heck? |
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Hell, I put Autopal bulbs on my Baja bug and I think they work fine on there.
_________________
Andy T.
IMAGE NOTE: It has been noted that Chrome based browsers may have issues in displaying my vast image library, which use non-secure links and are on an FTP server. Images should still be viewable if the link is clicked though.
I do not know how to fix this. All I can say is it all works fine for me with what I use, Firefox. |
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theastronaut
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2007
Posts: 1631
Location: Anderson, SC
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:01 pm Post subject: Re: Headlights - Duuude, confused, disappointed, and what the heck? |
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| Mos6502 wrote: |
| theastronaut wrote: |
There are numerous differences in the fluting design, it wsn't just copied from Hella. Also notice the lack of glare sheild; you have full view of the bulb... that causes glare, which will be even worse with an LED bulb. |
I'm not going to bother addressing the rest of your post, because you can clearly see in the OP that the autopal DOT lamps have a bulb shield. That and the 7" Cibie Z beams do not have a DOT marking on them (or, at least, the currently available ones do not). |
The ads I found earlier for fluted Autopal light didn't show a glare shield, and if you google "autopal h4" most don't have a glare shield. After doing more searching it looks like the 7" DOT version has a glare shield and the E-Code version doesn't... that's strange since e-code regulations are much more strict on glare. More proof that Autopal doesn't actually conform to the regulations marked on the lens? I think my error was due to the fact that many advertisers use the same pics of 5.75" DOT headlight without a glare shield in their ads for 7" headlights that do have a glare shield.
Actual Z-Beams have been discontinued since '91/'92ish but the later production Z-Beams did have both DOT and E-Code markings, and they actually conformed to both standards (the only 7" H4's to ever do so). You are correct that the curently available Cibie e-codes are not marked DOT because they have the usual e-code 15* passenger side low beam cutoff where the Z-Beams had a stepped/horizontal cutoff on the passenger side that is identical to today's projector low beam pattern. The fluting is very different between the two styles.
Z-Beam:
E-code.
_________________
Strive for perfection in everything. Take the best that exist and make it better. If it doesn't exist, create it. Accept nothing nearly right or good enough."
-Sir Henry Royce, co-founder of Rolls-Royce
'64 Beetle Sunroof OG Bahama Blue
'63 Beetle Vert
'66 Beetle
'88 Festiva L
'89 Festiva L
'64 Chevy C10
'66 Chevy C10 |
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67 Sunroof
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2014
Posts: 1836
Location: Salisbury, MD
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: Headlights - Duuude, confused, disappointed, and what the heck? |
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| theastronaut wrote: |
| Mos6502 wrote: |
They look that way because they have a DOT spec lens. The Hella DOT lenses look virtually identical:
The Cibie and Hella lamps you're thinking of are E-code, and technically illegal for on-road use in the U.S.
The Autopal lamps are cheap, but it has little to do with the design of the lens, more the materials. |
There are numerous differences in the fluting design, it wsn't just copied from Hella. Also notice the lack of glare sheild; you have full view of the bulb... that causes glare, which will be even worse with an LED bulb. The "technically illegal" Cibie/Hella e-code headlights both have glare sheilds, as do the DOT Hella H4. Cibie Z-Beams have both DOT and e-code markings on the lens, I believe they're the only 7" H4 headlight that ever conformed to both standards.
| Quote: |
| Well yeah, they kind of have to work to spec if they want to put the DOT marking on it. |
Again, the DOT doesn't check to make sure any aftermarket headlight actually conforms to their standards, so anyone can mark anything as "DOT" without being checked. The amount of garbage lighting passed off as "DOT Approved" is a joke, just search "7" HID DOT" on ebay to see for yourself. HID/LED bulbs in H4 housings are illegal, so of course they're not DOT approved, but they're stamped DOT anyway.
| Quote: |
| Probably no R&D necessary, just copy the Hella unit. How old do you think any patents are for the DOT Hella lens? Likely too old to protect against a direct copy. |
As stated above, it's not a direct copy.
| Quote: |
| The LED units he is using are pretty expensive... |
Autopal headlights on their own are known to be cheap junk, check their reviews at candlepowerforums.com. They're as cheap as $19.95 on eBay for a pair. Expensive doesn't mean they'll work well. I bought a set of $450 Dapper Lighting V2 7" headlights for my Miata and they ended up being H1 halogen projectors with rebased HID bulbs. The beam pattern was horrible due using HID bulbs in a halogen projector and they even had instructions on how to bend the base of the bulbs to center the hot spot of the beam pattern. The end user is responsible for centering the bulb in the $450 buck headlight... some great quality control going on there. I ended up sending them back because my 30+ year old Cibie Z-Beams had much better lighting on both high and low beam. They admitted that they knew there were space limitations in most older cars so they had to use smaller/shorter halogen projectors which hurt the performance of the lights. So "The most TRUSTED name in Classic Car Lighting" sells expensive lights that have known limitations because they use mismatched parts so they fit old cars. Sounds a lot like the headlights in question here. |
Crap I tried to post the 2 pictures one on top of the other to compare the “fluting”...I’ve learned a lot in this thread. I won’t call them “ridges” anymore! Haha!
Didn’t mean to create a stink. That’s the best thing about the forum-to be able to communicate where we are able to voice our knowledge without getting derailed or pissing one another off. Everyone has opinions and I appreciate the ability to express them publicly with an open mind.
The “z” beams look really cool!!
I paid $250 shipped for them so I guess I’ll have to see. Should be better than the “stock” headlights I hope. |
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theastronaut
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2007
Posts: 1631
Location: Anderson, SC
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:01 pm Post subject: Re: Headlights - Duuude, confused, disappointed, and what the heck? |
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Headlight performance has been super interesting to me for the last 10 or so years, so topics like this always catch my attention. I've wasted money on "upgraded" headlights that weren't as good as regular sealed beams before finding sites like candlepowerforums that lead me in the right direction on what to buy to really make a difference in seeing at night.
I used to drive my '64 bug 50 miles at night 4-5 times a week so I started looking for better lights. Went with DeltaTech Classic 7" "Xenon" lights which ended up being rebranded Wesem lights that really aren't an upgraded housing at all. The included bulbs were H4's with a blue coating to mimick the color of real xenon bulbs, but the tint actually lowers the light output so they're dimmer than uncoated bulbs. Sounded good in the ad though, so I bought them not knowing any better.
Here's a good example of the knowlegeable people on candlepower forums.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?321805-Delta-has-a-new-7-quot-H4-kit
I didn't like the Delta H4's, the original sealed beams were better. I found out about Cibie Z-Beams and eventually tracked down a NOS set, and now all of my cars that had sealed beams have been converted to Cibie lights and have a relay harness. I've tried Hella H4's and Dapper's HIDs, neither are as good. If they didn't look so out of place on an older car I'd buy a set of JW Speaker 8700 Evo LED's to try out since they're the best 7" currently available. Just can't get over how strange they look. Anyway, I didn't intend to "create a stink" by posting my experiences when upgrading headlights. I hate seeing people waste money on overpriced/overhyped lights that are ill-performing compared to a set of $100 buck Cibie H4's, so I commented.
_________________
Strive for perfection in everything. Take the best that exist and make it better. If it doesn't exist, create it. Accept nothing nearly right or good enough."
-Sir Henry Royce, co-founder of Rolls-Royce
'64 Beetle Sunroof OG Bahama Blue
'63 Beetle Vert
'66 Beetle
'88 Festiva L
'89 Festiva L
'64 Chevy C10
'66 Chevy C10 |
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sonoma_vw
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2013
Posts: 464
Location: Sonoma County
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:04 am Post subject: Re: Headlights - Duuude, confused, disappointed, and what the heck? |
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Great thread!
Maybe I missed it, but is there a clear headlight (LED or Halogen) that is ok to use with a fluted Hella cover?
I know it's bad to use typical sealed bulbs as they already have a pattern, but are there any sealed bulbs that have clear glass? Do they need to have a smooth reflector dish as well (with no ridges or patterns)? |
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Mos6502
Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2015
Posts: 725
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:14 am Post subject: Re: Headlights - Duuude, confused, disappointed, and what the heck? |
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| sonoma_vw wrote: |
Great thread!
Maybe I missed it, but is there a clear headlight (LED or Halogen) that is ok to use with a fluted Hella cover?
I know it's bad to use typical sealed bulbs as they already have a pattern, but are there any sealed bulbs that have clear glass? Do they need to have a smooth reflector dish as well (with no ridges or patterns)? |
The short answer is no. There are sealed beams with clear glass (for spotlight use, and only single filament) but those will not work. The euro lights use a plain reflector, such as this one: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BEETLE-Headlamp-Reflect...Swg35ap7CJ
And a tungsten bulb like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BEETLE-CABRIO-Bulb-Earl...SwzwxaqBTl
(not affiliated with the sellers, just found this the easiest way to get good clear images).
These are not halogen bulbs, and suffer from the same issue as a regular sealed beam - the filament "evaporates" with use and causes the bulbs to get progressively dimmer until they burn out. |
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67 Sunroof
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2014
Posts: 1836
Location: Salisbury, MD
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:30 am Post subject: Re: Headlights - Duuude, confused, disappointed, and what the heck? |
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| I had projector beams on my last car and liked them but they just looked too funky appearance-wise. |
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obnoxiousblue
Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2007
Posts: 2940
Location: East Northport, NY
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:49 pm Post subject: Re: Headlights - Duuude, confused, disappointed, and what the heck? |
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Anyone have advice on aligning/adjusting headlights? The manual is has a small bit about it. I watched a YouTube video which was generic but likely still similar. The magic line is the same as the height of the focused part of the beam to the ground. Adjust the drivers side down about (4” below the center line and the passenger side about 2” down while the car is parked about 16 feet from a wall.
I assume side to side adjustment should be set to neutral/or 0? Or should the focus be turned more to the passenger side? How far?
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Mike
1964 Beetle
2001 Eurovan Camper |
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