Great Grandpa’s 1964 Sunroof Bug Full Stock Restoration

[mukluk]

+1 on the Weldwood contact cement recommendation, it's really good stuff.
_________________
1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga"

[pastellgreen]

Matthew, this strange knocking is knocking in my head all the time. At my engine there are two sounds at the same time, a deep sound as coming from the case and a light sound as from the vlave train. In meanwhile I think, this could be a blocked oil passage. After a little bit driving, the knocking disappears as the oil is more fluid and passes the blockage, or came to the dry area through other ways.
As one is always concentrated on cleaning the case and its oil galleries (as possible) what isn't the easiest thing: Did you clean and blow out the passages of:
- the push rods?
- the rocker?
- the cam follower?

If your answer is "no", your first attempt might be not to pull the engine but to disassemble the rockershaft only and pulling the push rods to clean these passages. Correct setting for cylinder heads with round bosses but short studs is .004 as you stated above.

Even that I used an anaerob seal for the case, the first time I changed oil I had residue from this gasket in shape of little, hard pieces. I was concerned about it but also thinking, the mesh will hold these away from the galleries.

[matthew henricks]

[matthew henricks]

[matthew henricks]

I think i have been here before...

It is good to have friends nearby. It is also re-assuring when you are chasing a noise that the friend tells you to "shut it down" as soon as you fire it up because they recognize the knock is not normal. Thank you Jimbo.

Not knowing what i would find lets start by draining the oil. Probably not a good thing to find metal in the oil... You don't need a microscope to see it but since i have one handy...

Well i guess we dig deeper then. I took it down to the short block looking for anything.

My unprofessional assessment is:

- Not that much metal in the oil. Other than the oil plate not much more.
- Nothing obviously loose or in wrong.
- All bolts tight.
- Rod bearings have deep scratches. Easily catch my fingernail.
- Driver side rod journals have a weird shadow at bottom end side.
- Pistons have some rubbing evidence. (Piston slap)
- #4 cylinder has some linear burnishing at bottom on one side.
- Nothing obvious at the heads or piston tops.
- More oil under the #1/#2 valve cover than the #3/#4. (This was the same the first oil change.

My first thought was piston slap but not sure.

Parts

#4 cylinder with burnishing. (the lines.)

Shadow on rod journal. #3 & #4 have this. #1 & #2 do not. The arc looking shadow. That is not lighting.

Wrist pin area. All are clean.

#4 rod bearing. Both sides scratched.

#3 & #4 pistons. Note the shine at the skirt.

Have not clea ned everything upyet. Have not split the case. Not really sure my next move and nothing so far is obvious.


for the record here is some info.
- As parts stated new or rebuilt and all parts cleaned.
- New P&C's. (83mm)
- Rebuild rods & polished crank
- Rebuild lifters. Stock used cam.
- All bearings were new and all were plasti-gaged at assy.
- Case was NOT Align-bored. Journals were clean.
- Cam bearings added.
- All oil passages cleaned and blown out. All case passages too.
- New oil Pump.
- Initial break-in was a few short runs to get it running then 20-30 min at moderate RPM. Ran smooth and no knock.
- Oil was changed soon after.
- Flooded engine with 1 gal gas. Sat for a week that way. Tried to start it before i discovered it. Gas leaking out heads and exhaust.
- Drained engine and replaced oil. Engine ran "fine" but knock came soon after.
- Re-torqued all bolts at this time. Nothing really loose. Head bolts did take more torque but nothing crazy.
- Probably less than 20 min running after engine flood. I want to say the knock comes and goes but it really does not. To me it was very clear on #3/4 side. (Drivers)
- Pulling each plug wire while idling did not clearly make knock come or go.
_________________
1964 Original Owner build Thread. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=702135&highlight=

Ambulance Fan's. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=627707&highlight=

Parts i am looking for:
64 bug nice used front/rear Black LHD floor mat.

[tcoop1100]

Matthew-
Did you check the rods for play on the crank before you disassembled? The only thing that comes to mind is the gas leak washed the oil off the bearing surfaces when you tried to run it and scored the bearings and cylinders. What do the cam lobes and lifters look like? Have you checked the end play? I realize everything was new or rebuilt but since you're down to the short block now might as well check 'em all.
_________________
Aloha,
Tim
January '57 Sedan with April '64 40hp big bore

[matthew henricks]

[tcoop1100]

I hope you figure it out. It drives me nuts when there's a problem and no obvious source.
_________________
Aloha,
Tim
January '57 Sedan with April '64 40hp big bore

[matthew henricks]

[tcoop1100]

Is your case bored for cam bearings? If not, something else to consider if you do have it line bored. You might check the lash between the crank and cam gears, too. Easy to do- hold the crank still with one hand and move the cam gear back and forth. If you hear a small "clink-clink" or get no movement you're probably OK. If you get a "clunk-clunk" you probably have too much and may need a + or - gear to get it right. Spec is 0 to .002". Look at the wear on the gears, too- if present on the cam gear that would be a good indicator of too little play.
Sounds like you're onto something with that 3-4 side.
_________________
Aloha,
Tim
January '57 Sedan with April '64 40hp big bore

[matthew henricks]

[matthew henricks]

Let me be the first to announce to TheSamba that I'm an idiot. I did not listen to others. I though i was better. I was young. I was cocky. I took on the world and the world just spit me out.

My engine was a time bomb. I figured out that the knock was the #3 and/or #4 rod and it was due to the bearing wear.

I split the case this week and found a complete mess of sludge in the bottom of the case. It was like i never cleaned it. Worse though EVERY SINGLE BEARING SURFACE looks like it was sanded with 80 grit sand paper. Talk about depressing. The engine has one hour on it. Main bearings, rod bearings, Rod and crank journals, cam lobs and cam shanks are shot.

OK.... Why is the question. If you read this thread you know i cleaned everything including the oil galleys. So being the geek i am let's find out what is in my sludge.

I took about four swipes of sludge with my finger and put it inside a tea bag. I dipped that in mineral spirits like i was steeping tea to get rid of the oil. From there i then dipped it into Acetone to dissolve the mineral spirits. What is left are the solid compounds of the sludge. Lets just say that if you needed to do some aggressive sanding this is the aggregate you would use.

We have Steel, Aluminum, Magnesium, Soda, rock and other unidentified stuff. Sigh...

This is where the idiot raises his hand and says "Why yes. Yes i did that!".

If you read this thread you will know i soda blasted the case. Well... That there was my error. My blast cabinet undoubtable had some left over aggregate and even though i cleaned everything what i did was salt the walls of my case with sand paper aggregate. The illusion of clean was a house of cards. I am sure the heat and gas flooding freed it all up to tear the engine apart. It would have happened anyways but the flooding accelerated it all.

Sooo.... Where to go from here.
- Part of me wants to be done and buy a 40HP long block.
- Part of me wants to find a used engine and clean it up.
- Part of me says get back on that horse.
- Most of me says to do the first to get going and the last as a spare engine.


I am looking for a new case or rebuildable long short block. Any leads in So. Cal? Ideally an early 64 number but at this point i don't care so much. Round hole or D hole case is fine.


Here is my plan.
- New case. Align bore and cam bearings i am sure will be needed.
- Re-grind this crank.
- Replace lifters and all bearings
- Clean and inspect cam, rods, lifters, heads etc. Take it all apart again. Replace if needed.


If you need me ill be in the closet crying.
_________________
1964 Original Owner build Thread. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=702135&highlight=

Ambulance Fan's. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=627707&highlight=

Parts i am looking for:
64 bug nice used front/rear Black LHD floor mat.

[House]

Wow, very unfortunate, but luckily was can all learn from your error…!
Sorry you had to pay the price.

[cricketseed]

That's a bummer. This is exactly the kind of thing I would have done, except I would have never had the gumption in the first place to get as far with the overall project as you have. I'd say listen to the part of you that says get back on that horse. You've done this once; you can do it again. My two cents.
_________________
'66 Beetle

[tcoop1100]

I agree with Cricket. Having come this far on your own I don't think you'll be happy with a used engine or a new longblock built by someone else. Mount up!
_________________
Aloha,
Tim
January '57 Sedan with April '64 40hp big bore

[hobthebob]

Man, you're doing stuff on engines I've never even dreamed of, making mistakes I'll be lucky to have the opportunity to make at some point in the future. Keep up the good work, and remember, some of the most successful people fail innumerable times before succeeding. You're in good company.

[matthew henricks]

Thank you all for the encouragement. I have started the process of the re-build. It's just money...

Over the weekend we figured out:
- Case is..... See below.
- P&C's are shot
- Rods are shot
- All bearings shot
- Crank can be re-ground
- Lifters are shot
- Everything else is OK but i will also replace the pushrod tubes.

The key question i have not answered is if i will re-use the case. My gut says no since i cannot explain the sludge right now.

My secondary question is why don't want to use a newer case. Why does that stupid number and "D" oil fill hole bother me so much.... (I am seeing my therapist soon )


If anyone has a lead in So. Cal on a good case let me know. I am already working my way through all TheSamba Adds but maybe there is something local not listed.

In the meantime i also got the new sunroof headliner panel from WW to do over again.

_________________
1964 Original Owner build Thread. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=702135&highlight=

Ambulance Fan's. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=627707&highlight=

Parts i am looking for:
64 bug nice used front/rear Black LHD floor mat.

[tcoop1100]

Matthew-
I don't think there's any reason you couldn't use your current case, with one caveat- I would remove the oil gallery plugs, have them tapped for NPT plugs, and then scrub the hell out of everything with bore brushes after any necessary machine work is done. That would help ensure everything is as clean as possible.
Even if you decide to replace the case it would still be worthwhile to have that done, especially since any case you might find will probably have a lot of miles on it. Lots of places in there for stuff to hide.
_________________
Aloha,
Tim
January '57 Sedan with April '64 40hp big bore

[VW_Jimbo]

I thought that I had mentioned that I may have a case, when I saw you on Sunday. I will go through the cases I have on hand. I think that I have a round hole and a D hole case. I will hit you up on Saturday.

Did you get to play with the Porta tool?
_________________
Jimbo

There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!

[matthew henricks]