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matthew henricks Samba Member
Joined: January 02, 2002 Posts: 1219 Location: So. Cal
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Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:14 am Post subject: Re: Great Grandpa’s 1964 Sunroof Bug Full Stock Restoration |
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Lots of good engine learning on my other thread trying to figure out where my sludge came from.
Here are some random images.
My rods
Typical Rod end
Typical wrist pin end
Damaged casting mark on one rod. mushroomed over.
Checking lifter bore with .7488" del-tronic pin
Typical lifter
Lifter Bore
Cam lob & bearing
Now for some new stuff. Picked up a head valve removal tool locally for $20. Lets try it out and clean up my heads. That was fun...
A tool was loaned to me to learn how to use. This is also going to be fun.
Engine is the focus. Getting ready to buy my way out of this problem... _________________ 1964 Original Owner build Thread. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=702135&highlight=
Ambulance Fan's. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=627707&highlight=
Parts i am looking for:
64 bug nice used front/rear Black LHD floor mat. |
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matthew henricks Samba Member
Joined: January 02, 2002 Posts: 1219 Location: So. Cal
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Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:56 am Post subject: Re: Great Grandpa’s 1964 Sunroof Bug Full Stock Restoration |
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Time to get oil galley plugs out again. I did a really good job with these. They did not come out easy. Two of them needed horsepower. My mill was big enough for one. Not the other.
Don't worry. Light cuts so plenty stable and perpendicularity is not critical.
This one need to be set up on an angle plate. That is for tonight.
- Crank is off to be ground.
- Case goes to get cleaned Monday.
- Rods i am still unsure about. Will do some inspection today on them. What i do know is the rod bolts do not naturally align the side walls of the crank end which is probably not good and probably part of my problem...
The rest is easy stuff to get.
A few discoveries.
1. Found a picture showing i had the rods in the right way which is good. (Cast mark up)
2. I did not install the shims below the distributor. Unlikely the cause of issues but...
3. A stuck oil pressure piston sucks to remove.
4. Figured out how to get the oil pick-up screw out of the case and found some crap under it. Hmmm.... Now how to get the pick-up to not rotate.
5. Curil K2 is NLA. Bummer. I really liked that stuff. Guess it was replaced with Curil T2 so we will try that. _________________ 1964 Original Owner build Thread. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=702135&highlight=
Ambulance Fan's. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=627707&highlight=
Parts i am looking for:
64 bug nice used front/rear Black LHD floor mat. |
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pastellgreen Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2012 Posts: 1049 Location: Germany
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Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:56 am Post subject: Re: Great Grandpa’s 1964 Sunroof Bug Full Stock Restoration |
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matthew henricks wrote: |
What i do know is the rod bolts do not naturally align the side walls of the crank end which is probably not good and probably part of my problem... |
? I would like to understand. |
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matthew henricks Samba Member
Joined: January 02, 2002 Posts: 1219 Location: So. Cal
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Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:08 am Post subject: Re: Great Grandpa’s 1964 Sunroof Bug Full Stock Restoration |
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pastellgreen wrote: |
matthew henricks wrote: |
What i do know is the rod bolts do not naturally align the side walls of the crank end which is probably not good and probably part of my problem... |
? I would like to understand. |
In the below image the upper bolt is loose and the sides of the rod are offset. This is normal with the bolts loose.
Now pretend i tighten these bolt up so the cap is secure. That offset can still be there. The shoulder of the rod bolts do not naturally align things.
I do not know if this is normal but is suspect it is not.
This is just an observation right now. I can align them but i did not pay attention to that on the first build.
Hope that made sense.
_________________ 1964 Original Owner build Thread. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=702135&highlight=
Ambulance Fan's. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=627707&highlight=
Parts i am looking for:
64 bug nice used front/rear Black LHD floor mat. |
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tcoop1100 Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2004 Posts: 197 Location: Hilo, Moku O Keawe, Moana Pakipika
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Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:20 am Post subject: Re: Great Grandpa’s 1964 Sunroof Bug Full Stock Restoration |
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Matthew-
It's normal for 40HP rods- the caps need to be aligned when installed. One method I've used is to get them hand tight then use a feeler gauge between the rod/cap and one crank cheek to push the assembly up against the other cheek to hold it in alignment while you torque the bolts to spec. It's easy enough to eyeball the seam to make sure they're aligned, as a backup. _________________ Aloha,
Tim
January '57 Sedan, April '64 40hp big bore |
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pastellgreen Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2012 Posts: 1049 Location: Germany
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Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:01 pm Post subject: Re: Great Grandpa’s 1964 Sunroof Bug Full Stock Restoration |
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To get the caps aligned I always take a little hammer after tightening the bolts. Before, the rod would not slide through its own weight, but after it does. Understood this to be the common practice, it's written down in the manual.
But anyway, even if you didn't pay attention, I doubt this is the source of the knocking. |
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matthew henricks Samba Member
Joined: January 02, 2002 Posts: 1219 Location: So. Cal
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Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:10 pm Post subject: Re: Great Grandpa’s 1964 Sunroof Bug Full Stock Restoration |
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Thank you Gents. Another piece of evidence that my rods may be fine but for sure i DID NOT align them when i built the motor the first time.
I still am not totally sure where the knock came. The thread i have on the Engine section is concluding the same. Not clear the source which is never comforting.
If this was for my company and i wanted to be a good systematic Engineer i would change one thing at a time, build the engine till i figured it out. Ya... No.....
I am going to shot-gun approach. Change everything out and try again. For sure i will NOT know what the source was but man i hope it just goes away....
Keep the comments coming. Maybe i do a step by step post of the build to allow you all to tell me where i go wrong. Won't do that but will be super careful and slow about it. _________________ 1964 Original Owner build Thread. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=702135&highlight=
Ambulance Fan's. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=627707&highlight=
Parts i am looking for:
64 bug nice used front/rear Black LHD floor mat. |
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mukluk Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2012 Posts: 7028 Location: Clyde, TX
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Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: Great Grandpa’s 1964 Sunroof Bug Full Stock Restoration |
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If you didn't align the rod caps then your plastigage measurements may have been erroneous.
Personally, I prefer to assemble, align, and torque up each rod separate from the crank and measure the ID for each. Comparing these measurements against those I take directly of the rod journals, I can then calculate the clearances and tailor the install location if there are variations that need addressed. _________________ 1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga" |
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matthew henricks Samba Member
Joined: January 02, 2002 Posts: 1219 Location: So. Cal
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Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:15 pm Post subject: Re: Great Grandpa’s 1964 Sunroof Bug Full Stock Restoration |
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mukluk wrote: |
If you didn't align the rod caps then your plastigage measurements may have been erroneous.
Personally, I prefer to assemble, align, and torque up each rod separate from the crank and measure the ID for each. Comparing these measurements against those I take directly of the rod journals, I can then calculate the clearances and tailor the install location if there are variations that need addressed. |
That does make sense. Thank you. Earlier i mentioned one rod sort of being tight at assembly. A mis-alignment here would for sure cause that. Wonder if that would also cause the knock to not be there and then appear?
Hmmm... Good stuff to think about. Probably never prove anything but...
I will be measuring this time each dimension as you suggest. Borrowing a set of telescoping bore gauges and 2" micrometer. _________________ 1964 Original Owner build Thread. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=702135&highlight=
Ambulance Fan's. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=627707&highlight=
Parts i am looking for:
64 bug nice used front/rear Black LHD floor mat. |
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matthew henricks Samba Member
Joined: January 02, 2002 Posts: 1219 Location: So. Cal
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matthew henricks Samba Member
Joined: January 02, 2002 Posts: 1219 Location: So. Cal
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Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 8:21 am Post subject: Re: Great Grandpa’s 1964 Sunroof Bug Full Stock Restoration |
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Spending $$ weekend trying to get back on track with Engines.
I pulled out my spare engine set of parts and decided i would build up the short block. Case is fine with no saddle wear. I have the parts but have been lazy to build it. It is my spare because it has a sand seal and can't run a stock pulley. It was the engine in the bug and ran just fine but will be the spare now.
Went to work on it and the bearings did not fit. .020"/.030"/std. Way too big for the case but i know this case was cut. (Sand seal, cam bearings & mains.) What the heck....
After going crazy thinking i could not measure things i figured out the case was cut at .010" oversize instead of the standard -020" by Rimco in the 90's. Of course those bearings are NLA. Hmmm... Exploring my options because it does not need to be re-cut due to wear.
- Find a set of .010/.030/Std bearings. Bug City has some with oversize thrust.
- Re-cut the case for .020" and move on.
- Re-use the old bearings. They are not that bad.
Beyond that i tried in vein to finish the horn bypass circuit and anything else i could but got no-where.
I did finish these though....
_________________ 1964 Original Owner build Thread. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=702135&highlight=
Ambulance Fan's. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=627707&highlight=
Parts i am looking for:
64 bug nice used front/rear Black LHD floor mat. |
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matthew henricks Samba Member
Joined: January 02, 2002 Posts: 1219 Location: So. Cal
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Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:26 pm Post subject: Re: Great Grandpa’s 1964 Sunroof Bug Full Stock Restoration |
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Some time this weekend and a more engine spending. Engine case is getting cleaned, crank getting ground and parts inbound.
I think i may have found the right bearings as well. Once i confirm things i will post the info.
Had a visit by a buddy today and he gave me some pointers on my back-up case bearings. If my bearing source does not pan out then we will cut the thrust for what i did find. More info later
In the meantime i did some geeking out on the porta-tool. The bits are pre-set to .020" but i believe in "trust but verify". I set out with the tools i had to check the settings. It checked out.
- First to measure all the cutters to see if they are the same. I used a 3/4" socket for the centering bore and set up a depth mic on my mill. All were within a few tenths.
- Leaving the depth mic set to the cutter depth now measure that same 3/4" socket (far side) to the face of the depth mic rod using the mill Y-axis read-out & a measuring indicator.
- Take that measurement and subtract the bore radii and you get your cutter diameter.
- Checked out.
Did some work under the gas tank. Trying to find a way to install a horn relay under the tank without cutting the wire harness.
Had a system figured out. Went to test it and i had no voltage. Dang. Battery died.
Check it with a meter and it was at 6.1V. What the heck..... Dooh. Not engine installed means no voltage getting from the battery to the fuse box without some rigging.... I had walked away before that dawned on me so another day...
Following this thread.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
While down there i notice more bad things with my AC Industries disc brakes. I knew the brake hoses rubbed on the tie rods. I added protection with spiral wrap. Now i see they hot the body too. Something has to be wrong here...
Oil cooler. I really do not want to re-use mine after the bearing damage issues. I have cleaned it and got nothing bad out of it but...
Found a "NOS" Brazilian one from the 80's in Egypt of all places. Shipped to me was just a little more than a Chinese aluminum one so why not.
Lets compare.
Left is OG. Middle is NOS Brazil and right is Aluminum Chinese.
- Weight. OG & Brazilian the same. Chinese alot lighter.
- No mesh on OG one.
- OG has build quality. Brazilian not so much.
- All are different heights. Why is the Chinese soooo much taller?
- All have crappy black paint.
- All have similar mounting but the braket are all a little different.
- Oil ports seem the same. Brazilian had two aluminum trim rubber boots to seal the holes when painted. Each hole had TWO plugs stacked and then lots of paint. Strange.
Hopefully next weekend i have engine cases and bearings... _________________ 1964 Original Owner build Thread. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=702135&highlight=
Ambulance Fan's. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=627707&highlight=
Parts i am looking for:
64 bug nice used front/rear Black LHD floor mat. |
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matthew henricks Samba Member
Joined: January 02, 2002 Posts: 1219 Location: So. Cal
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Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 9:14 am Post subject: Re: Great Grandpa’s 1964 Sunroof Bug Full Stock Restoration |
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Almost have all the parts for the engine. Both engines that is. Going to build the spare at the same time.
Had my case hot tanked. Not quire sure what i paid for. Very disapointing.
Before.
After
So i spend Saturday again cleaning. Every oil galley with every tool and chemical i have. It is clean but we have been here before.
Crank and other parts.
Decided to clean my 59 year old oil cooler. Man the amount of crap that came out.
This is 1/4 of it. This image does not do justice as the pile is 1/2" tall.
Close up. Just oil crap from all the years.
Anyone have one of these available before a make a few? 40HP round oil filler baffle. These were dealer or mechanic installed.
All for now. _________________ 1964 Original Owner build Thread. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=702135&highlight=
Ambulance Fan's. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=627707&highlight=
Parts i am looking for:
64 bug nice used front/rear Black LHD floor mat. |
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matthew henricks Samba Member
Joined: January 02, 2002 Posts: 1219 Location: So. Cal
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Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 6:54 pm Post subject: Re: Great Grandpa’s 1964 Sunroof Bug Full Stock Restoration |
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Slowly making my way towards an engine.
No pictures but the engine case is clean. All ports and all little places dirt can hide have been cleaned. Still going to start it up with a full flow filter installed just in case because i have been here before.
While i waited for parts to arrive on my primary engine i worked on my back-up engine. It engine has been ignored for a few years so why not build both at the same time. It is a stock 40HP with a sand seal. It is the engine that came out of the car and ran fine. 62 dated case. 77mm pistons.
New rings
Cleaned the pistons in carb cleaner and all put together. Weight is within 1g on all.
cleaned and painted cylinders.
Honed.
Cleaning up the oil pump plate.
A pile of parts ready to go.
Rods installed and drop tested ok.
Case going together. Test fitting
And there i a stalled.
Some fun at Home Depot. If you know, you know.
_________________ 1964 Original Owner build Thread. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=702135&highlight=
Ambulance Fan's. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=627707&highlight=
Parts i am looking for:
64 bug nice used front/rear Black LHD floor mat. |
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heimlich VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016 Posts: 6621 Location: Houston, Texas
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Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 7:00 pm Post subject: Re: Great Grandpa’s 1964 Sunroof Bug Full Stock Restoration |
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How did those bearings work out for you? _________________ www.vwnos.com [email protected]
Classic Brands. Classic Quality.
Not all parts are made the same. NOS OE/OEM parts made mainly in West Germany, Early Germany, and Early Brazil are where VW produced the best quality parts and best fitting products.
5% Off your order with coupon code: 5%OFF
Restored Distributors Available (<--Click here) |
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mukluk Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2012 Posts: 7028 Location: Clyde, TX
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Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 7:35 pm Post subject: Re: Great Grandpa’s 1964 Sunroof Bug Full Stock Restoration |
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matthew henricks wrote: |
Rods installed and drop tested ok.
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Hopefully you reinstalled the rods so the bumps are all facing up when the short block is together... two are upside down in your picture. _________________ 1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga" |
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Busstom Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2014 Posts: 3853 Location: San Jose, CA
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Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 8:02 pm Post subject: Re: Great Grandpa’s 1964 Sunroof Bug Full Stock Restoration |
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The two nearest the gears. _________________ My name's Steve and it's pronounced "Bust 'em" (cuz people think I'm Tom) 😏 |
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mukluk Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2012 Posts: 7028 Location: Clyde, TX
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Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 8:12 pm Post subject: Re: Great Grandpa’s 1964 Sunroof Bug Full Stock Restoration |
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Busstom wrote: |
The two nearest the gears. |
Or the two nearest the flywheel. Doesn't matter which pair gets flipped over, but it's no good as is. _________________ 1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga" |
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Busstom Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2014 Posts: 3853 Location: San Jose, CA
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Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 8:16 pm Post subject: Re: Great Grandpa’s 1964 Sunroof Bug Full Stock Restoration |
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Really? I always thought all forging marks should point up when the #1 throw points toward TDC. (i.e. is nearest TDC.)
Edit: wait, you lost me....doesn't matter where #1 throw points, so what am I missing? How can he flip 1 and 3 and be okay? That puts bumps down. _________________ My name's Steve and it's pronounced "Bust 'em" (cuz people think I'm Tom) 😏 |
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mukluk Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2012 Posts: 7028 Location: Clyde, TX
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Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 8:57 pm Post subject: Re: Great Grandpa’s 1964 Sunroof Bug Full Stock Restoration |
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The rod journals numbered from flywheel end to pulley end are #3, 1, 4, then 2. When properly assembled with all the bumps facing up you should have one adjacent pair of rods at BDC and the other adjacent pair at TDC. It doesn't matter if the odd numbered pair or the even numbered pair are at TDC or BDC so long as the other numbered pair is the opposite, but you cannot have all four rods simultaneously at the TDC position with bumps up or at BDC with bumps up.
To help visualise things a bit, take a look at the animated gifs HERE. _________________ 1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga" |
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