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calebthebaeleb
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Joined: April 09, 2018
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Location: Bay Area, California
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 Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:34 am Post subject: Spark Plug Crossthreading & Engine Removal [SOLVED] |
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So I was swapping out my spark plugs yesterday and everything went fine until I did my last one on cylinder #3. The spark plugs wouldn't thread for a long time until finally it caught but had a bit of resistance. I pushed through about a full turn thinking maybe it would clear up but to no avail and realized I cross threaded it. I immediately pulled it out and sure enough, there were metal shavings in the threads.  
I did a bit of reading and saw that there were kits to rethread spark plugs holes because it seems to be a common occurrence, but I also saw that before doing that I should try a thread chaser (I didn't see much about them in my quick search online so I don't know what they are or how they work)
The cross threading is only at the start so only the first few threads are altered. Which option would be my best to solve this problem? Can anyone point me in the right direction of which thread chaser or rethreading kit to get? Thank you!
Last edited by calebthebaeleb on Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Erik G
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Joined: October 16, 2002
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Location: Tejas!
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:40 pm Post subject: Re: Spark Plugs Crossthreading |
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http://www.aircooled.net/
I did this on my very first car in 1995. Ever since, I use a piece of fuel line. Attach about an 8 inch piece. It stops threading before it will cross thread
motorcycle, but same:
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Last edited by Erik G on Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
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Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:42 pm Post subject: Re: Spark Plugs Crossthreading |
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Try a search for "Spark Plug Threads" in a search of all the forums. Check the "Titles Only" box so it only searches the titles to keep the results down to a manageable amount. Found the answer in the third post.
Never use the ratchet wrench to start to thread in the spark plug. Remove it and by hand turn the extension with socket on it till you are sure you have at least one turn in.
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Cusser
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Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31361
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:57 pm Post subject: Re: Spark Plugs Crossthreading |
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| calebthebaeleb wrote: |
I did a bit of reading and saw that there were kits to rethread spark plugs holes because it seems to be a common occurrence, but I also saw that before doing that I should try a thread chaser (I didn't see much about them in my quick search online so I don't know what they are or how they work)
The cross threading is only at the start so only the first few threads are altered. Which option would be my best to solve this problem? Can anyone point me in the right direction of which thread chaser or rethreading kit to get? Thank you! |
I strongly suggest getting a spark plug thread chaser tool, I have one myself. See https://www.autozone.com/test-scan-and-specialty-t.../70109_0_0 or https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/b/lisle-4148/to...00/4413541
Likely this will fix your issue. Short story #1: about 15 years ago I saw my next-door neighbor fussing under the hood of his Toyota, cam back a few hours later he was still fussin' under there. I walked over and turns out he - like you - could not thread in one of this plugs due to a cross-threading. I walked over to my house and grabbed my thread chaser tool and said "try this", and 3 minutes later it was fixed.
Short story #2: a machinist in 1986 thought it would be a good idea to install heli-coil inserts in my dual-port cylinder heads when he machined them (I hadn't agreed to that). Anyway, about 20 years later one of those heli-coils unscrewed with my #2 spark plug and I yelled #%&##%^&$#@@%^&. Anyway, I installed a solid threaded insert there (did not pull the engine), and that's what I have there today. I used a solid threaded insert that just needed hand tools, but the "best" inserts are considered TimeSert but those require renting special tools (see aircooled.net for those).
Yes - it's very important on ALL vehicles to get spark plugs (and brake line fittings, and VW rear bar bolts) threaded in a few full turns by hand before grabbing a wrench. The spark plugs must be exactly parallel to the threads, so on a VW must be perpendicular to the front-rear axis and of course the spark plugs angle up. Some like to use a piece of rubber hose as a "handle" to get plugs started, I typically use my magnetic spark plug socket and an extension and thread in by hand and by feel.
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297
Last edited by Cusser on Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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bluebus86
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Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:59 pm Post subject: Re: Spark Plugs Crossthreading |
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There are spark plug thread chasing taps, most any well stock autoparts store should have them. This maybe a viable solution if most for the thread is still good. Use best pratice, grease heavily to hold on to chips. I also have fashioned a narrow noozle on a powerful shop vac to use to help remove any chips that might remain.
if you want new threads, one of the best is a Timesert...
http://www.timesert.com
Id avoid a Helicoil, I have had many eventually backout of the hole
There are some other brands too, specifically for spark plugs, with different methods of install.
the inserts themselves are inexpensive, the install tools can be pricey however, but are cheaper than a replaced cylinder head, and probably cheaper than paying a shop to jnstall one.
Good Luck, Bug On!
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calebthebaeleb
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Joined: April 09, 2018
Posts: 74
Location: Bay Area, California
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: Spark Plugs Crossthreading |
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| Cusser wrote: |
I strongly suggest getting a spark plug thread chaser tool, I have one myself. See https://www.autozone.com/test-scan-and-specialty-t.../70109_0_0 or https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/b/lisle-4148/to...00/4413541
Likely this will fix your issue. Short story #1: about 15 years ago I saw my next-door neighbor fussing under the hood of his Toyota, cam back a few hours later he was still fussin' under there. I walked over and turns out he - like you - could not thread in one of this plugs due to a cross-threading. I walked over to my house and grabbed my thread chaser tool and said "try this", and 3 minutes later it was fixed.
Short story #2: a machinist in 1986 thought it would be a good idea to install heli-coil inserts in my dual-port cylinder heads when he machined them (I hadn't agreed to that). Anyway, about 20 years later one of those heli-coils unscrewed with my #2 spark plug and I yelled #%&##%^&$#@@%^&. Anyway, I installed a solid threaded insert there (did not pull the engine), and that's what I have there today. I used a solid threaded insert that just needed hand tools, but the "best" inserts are considered TimeSert but those require renting special tools (see aircooled.net for those). |
Thank you so much for the response. I'm thinking a thread chaser would be my best option since only the top few threads are messed up. However, I did a bit more research and found something called a back-tap https://www.amazon.com/Powerbuilt-640811-Back-Tap-Thread-Repair/dp/B0014FGVVW
After looking at the back-tap, I'm thinking that may be my best option. It works by placing down before the bottom of the threads and expanding to the thread size. It then follows the bottom threads up to the top threads where it's cross threaded and straightens them out. Looking at the reviews it seems to work well for cases like this.
Has anyone tried a back-tap? Would it work well for this scenario or should I just go with the thread chaser? |
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calebthebaeleb
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Joined: April 09, 2018
Posts: 74
Location: Bay Area, California
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:23 pm Post subject: Re: Spark Plugs Crossthreading |
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| bluebus86 wrote: |
There are spark plug thread chasing taps, most any well stock autoparts store should have them. This maybe a viable solution if most for the thread is still good. Use best pratice, grease heavily to hold on to chips. I also have fashioned a narrow noozle on a powerful shop vac to use to help remove any chips that might remain.
if you want new threads, one of the best is a Timesert...
http://www.timesert.com
Id avoid a Helicoil, I have had many eventually backout of the hole
There are some other brands too, specifically for spark plugs, with different methods of install.
the inserts themselves are inexpensive, the install tools can be pricey however, but are cheaper than a replaced cylinder head, and probably cheaper than paying a shop to jnstall one.
Good Luck, Bug On! |
Thanks bluebus! What do you think about trying this back-tap? https://www.amazon.com/Powerbuilt-640811-Back-Tap-Thread-Repair/dp/B0014FGVVW
Most of the threads should still be good because I only cross threaded 3 threads, however those are towards the top. The back-tap looks to be a good option because the threads at the bottom should still be good. |
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bugheadred
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Joined: January 23, 2003
Posts: 666
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:11 pm Post subject: Re: Spark Plugs Crossthreading |
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| calebthebaeleb wrote: |
| bluebus86 wrote: |
There are spark plug thread chasing taps, most any well stock autoparts store should have them. This maybe a viable solution if most for the thread is still good. Use best pratice, grease heavily to hold on to chips. I also have fashioned a narrow noozle on a powerful shop vac to use to help remove any chips that might remain.
if you want new threads, one of the best is a Timesert...
http://www.timesert.com
Id avoid a Helicoil, I have had many eventually backout of the hole
There are some other brands too, specifically for spark plugs, with different methods of install.
the inserts themselves are inexpensive, the install tools can be pricey however, but are cheaper than a replaced cylinder head, and probably cheaper than paying a shop to jnstall one.
Good Luck, Bug On! |
Thanks bluebus! What do you think about trying this back-tap? https://www.amazon.com/Powerbuilt-640811-Back-Tap-Thread-Repair/dp/B0014FGVVW
Most of the threads should still be good because I only cross threaded 3 threads, however those are towards the top. The back-tap looks to be a good option because the threads at the bottom should still be good. |
it looks like it would be to long and hard to use in the confined space |
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bluebus86
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Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:07 pm Post subject: Re: Spark Plugs Crossthreading |
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| calebthebaeleb wrote: |
| bluebus86 wrote: |
There are spark plug thread chasing taps, most any well stock autoparts store should have them. This maybe a viable solution if most for the thread is still good. Use best pratice, grease heavily to hold on to chips. I also have fashioned a narrow noozle on a powerful shop vac to use to help remove any chips that might remain.
if you want new threads, one of the best is a Timesert...
http://www.timesert.com
Id avoid a Helicoil, I have had many eventually backout of the hole
There are some other brands too, specifically for spark plugs, with different methods of install.
the inserts themselves are inexpensive, the install tools can be pricey however, but are cheaper than a replaced cylinder head, and probably cheaper than paying a shop to jnstall one.
Good Luck, Bug On! |
Thanks bluebus! What do you think about trying this back-tap? https://www.amazon.com/Powerbuilt-640811-Back-Tap-Thread-Repair/dp/B0014FGVVW
Most of the threads should still be good because I only cross threaded 3 threads, however those are towards the top. The back-tap looks to be a good option because the threads at the bottom should still be good. |
Thats a neat tool, new to me. as other posted, access maybe restricted. the length of this tool may or may not be a problem. youll need to measure how much space you have for a straight shot at it. I like the idea of it cause it starts on the good threads. if you start the threads on the bad end, if they are really bad, you may end up cutting cross threads all the way down.
If length wise it will fit, Id give it a go, if anything cause it is such a neat idea. and to think you came here asking questions! You may have discovered a neato answer
Bug On!
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Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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calebthebaeleb
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Joined: April 09, 2018
Posts: 74
Location: Bay Area, California
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:15 pm Post subject: Re: Spark Plugs Crossthreading |
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| bluebus86 wrote: |
If length wise it will fit, Id give it a go, if anything cause it is such a neat idea. and to think you came here asking questions! You may have discovered a neato answer |
I'll go ahead and measure it to make sure it fits. The tool seems to be relatively small looking at pictures, but I'll measure the room in the engine. If it should fit I'll order it and go ahead and try it out.
I'll be back to update because the tool doesn't seem to be very well known and if it looks as though it would be a fantastic fix. Thanks everyone! |
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bnam
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Location: El Dorado Hills CA/ Bangalore, India
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:19 am Post subject: Re: Spark Plugs Crossthreading |
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Do post a follow up -- that looks like a neat tool.
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David_nc_72std
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:02 am Post subject: Re: Spark Plugs Crossthreading |
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| I would estimate the tool is 4 1/2 to 4 3/4 long, measured by downloading the image and scaling it so that the threads are approximately the standard 1.25mm pitch. |
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Cusser
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:03 am Post subject: Re: Spark Plugs Crossthreading |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| it looks like it would be to long and hard to use in the confined space |
Yeah, but you could pull the engine out and then do this. Likely you could drop engine, leave on jack under the VW, and use it while on the jack, could be easier.
Neat tool, though, had never heard of this, I'm saving the link !
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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Ojai63dbl
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:13 am Post subject: Re: Spark Plugs Crossthreading |
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I ve used the back thread tool with engine out and works great
Never tried with engine in
I’ll get some measurements for you
and take a look today
Beetle needs some attention from me |
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allenw
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:17 am Post subject: Re: Spark Plugs Crossthreading |
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| I used a back tap on my Chrysler when I did the cross thread 6 years ago.You needto make sure you put grease on the tool so the shavings will not drop into the cylinder when it starts cutting threads. You need to make sure it is in the straight before you start expanding the tool. |
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Cusser
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bluebus86
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calebthebaeleb
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Location: Bay Area, California
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:53 am Post subject: Re: Spark Plugs Crossthreading |
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| Ojai63dbl wrote: |
I ve used the back thread tool with engine out and works great
Never tried with engine in
I’ll get some measurements for you
and take a look today
Beetle needs some attention from me |
Awesome, thank you! The problem cylinder for me is #3 so it's got a bit more room than cylinders #2 and #4. Hopefully it works.
I'll do some measurements in my engine bay today and update. If I end up ordering it, I'll update the post with my results from the tool. Hopefully all goes well. Thank you everyone! |
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calebthebaeleb
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:44 pm Post subject: Re: Spark Plugs Crossthreading |
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After a rough measurement it looks like it'll fit well enough. I'll go ahead and order it. One problem though is that I'll be doing it blind because of the angle. I'll just be slow and careful when using it and hope for the best.
I'll update in a few days when I recieve it and post my results.  |
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Cusser
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:31 pm Post subject: Re: Spark Plugs Crossthreading |
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| calebthebaeleb wrote: |
| After a rough measurement it looks like it'll fit well enough. I'll go ahead and order it. One problem though is that I'll be doing it blind because of the angle. I'll just be slow and careful when using it and hope for the best. |
Consider pulling the engine to do this or even for the chaser; if you've never pulled a VW engine before, there will be a time in the future you need to do this, so better now than later. Search out a VW Club in your area and maybe someone will provide hands-on help for the engine R&R. The thread repair part will take under 15 minutes.
Note that on one of my own engines (in my 1971), I did install a solid threaded insert on #2 and I did this with the engine still installed. My 1970 has a panel/hole cut out for straight-on access to plugs #3 and #4, remnants from the days of its dealer-added AC compressor.
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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