Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Fuel Pump relay 433 906 059 16929 and Mallory Unilite Wiring
Page: 1, 2  Next
Forum Index -> Bay Window Bus Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
gelos
Samba Member


Joined: September 08, 2006
Posts: 70
Location: Kansas City
gelos is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:55 am    Post subject: Fuel Pump relay 433 906 059 16929 and Mallory Unilite Wiring Reply with quote

1975 Transporter

I need some wiring and engine starting help.

The bus was originally FI but a PO had installed dual carbs instead.
I rebuilt the engine (camper special) and am trying to wire everything back together including a safety relay for the fuel pump (433 906 059)
http://www.germansupply.com/home/customer/product.php?productid=16929&cat=&page=1
and a Mallory Unilite distributor.

So nothing is going back to where it was and I'm having trouble creating it from scratch.

I have:
12v from Coil Positive to Ground
3.8 Ohms from Coil Positive to Coil Negative
1 Ohm from Coil Positive through ballast resistor
8810 Ohms from Coil Positive or Negative to center

I did the coil spark test, and got nothing. The fuel pump doesn't run when cranking but does when the relay is bypassed.

I think I'm missing the 12v/ignition switch wire to the ballast resistor connection.
If so, where can I get it from? Do I need to run a wire from the front? Which wire?
Is there a wire in the engine bay that I can use?
Anything else I'm missing?

Here's my current setup:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


My install instructions for the Mallory and Fuel Pump Regulator:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Thanks!
Todd
_________________
1975 vw bus,
Camper Special engine with dual Dellorto carbs.
Mallory Unilite distributer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Tcash
Samba Member


Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
Tcash is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:57 pm    Post subject: Re: need help with Fuel Pump relay and distributor wiring Reply with quote

Black S12 connect to Ballast with the Red wire from the Unilite.

Connect Yellow #15 from the fuel pump relay to #15 on the coil.

I hope you did not fry the Unilite Module. You have the Black S12 positive wire hooked to the #1 ground side of the coil. Usually connecting the green wire to Positive fry's the Points.
The Module may have built in protection to stop this from happening.

Good luck
Tcsah
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
gelos
Samba Member


Joined: September 08, 2006
Posts: 70
Location: Kansas City
gelos is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:57 pm    Post subject: Re: need help with Fuel Pump relay and distributor wiring Reply with quote

Thanks!

At one point I did have the Black S12 connected there but I moved it thinking it was incorrect. I must have gotten it mixed up in my head when I connected it to #1 ground side.

I moved the yellow #15 Relay wire from the Starter solenoid to #15 Coil and the black S12 wire to the Ballast where I circled it on the picture like you said.

Same result. I still don't get spark from the Coil center to ground while cranking.

Now I'm wondering if where I previously had the #15 relay wire caused some problems.
It was connected to the same side of the starter as the thick black/red wire on the "50" side.

If I fried the Unilite doing that, How can I test that?
Would that explain the lack of spark from the coil?
Is there something else I'm missing?

Thanks
Todd
_________________
1975 vw bus,
Camper Special engine with dual Dellorto carbs.
Mallory Unilite distributer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Tcash
Samba Member


Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
Tcash is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:54 pm    Post subject: Re: need help with Fuel Pump relay and distributor wiring Reply with quote

How can I test that?


Link
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
DougB
Samba Member


Joined: January 09, 2007
Posts: 955
Location: Falls Church, Virginia, USA
DougB is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:23 am    Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump relay 433 906 059 16929 and Mallory Unilite Wiring Reply with quote

Luckily itís super easy to test the Unilite optical module, because itís a point of failure for the dizzy. Iím on my 3rd module in 5 years. Sadly the ballast r sister didnít prevent the last failure. :-/
_________________
'75 Campmobile (former tin-top now with a SpaceRoof)
'73 Fastback
'52 BMW R67/2
'67 BMW R60/2
'55 Puch SGS250
http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-23040.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Gallery Classifieds Feedback
gelos
Samba Member


Joined: September 08, 2006
Posts: 70
Location: Kansas City
gelos is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:26 am    Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump relay 433 906 059 16929 and Mallory Unilite Wiring Reply with quote

That doesnít look to hard. Iíll give it a try today.

Iím so close to finally getting it started!
_________________
1975 vw bus,
Camper Special engine with dual Dellorto carbs.
Mallory Unilite distributer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
gelos
Samba Member


Joined: September 08, 2006
Posts: 70
Location: Kansas City
gelos is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump relay 433 906 059 16929 and Mallory Unilite Wiring Reply with quote

Well I did the tests in the video and the voltage doesnít drop from 12v when I block the optical sensor.

I have a new module on order which should get here sometime tomorrow.

Iíll keep you updated. Thanks for your help it means a lot!
_________________
1975 vw bus,
Camper Special engine with dual Dellorto carbs.
Mallory Unilite distributer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
DougB
Samba Member


Joined: January 09, 2007
Posts: 955
Location: Falls Church, Virginia, USA
DougB is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:22 am    Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump relay 433 906 059 16929 and Mallory Unilite Wiring Reply with quote

That';s almost certainly the issue, then. Was the distributor new? Re: optical sensors, there are actually several that work. The A605 was the original and supposed to be a handmade unit, whereas the 6100M was supposedly the newer, cheaper, machine-made unit. Both have failed on me, but up to that point they were flawless runners and great performers (and at least the test is definitive). I found a lot of information on failures on the web, and it seems that some recommend going with Mallory's magnetic pickup instead (or just installing a Pertronix, which is available for this distributor). In addition to the Mallory units, there's also the Accel 2005 (sometimes cheaper but said to be the same innards as the 6100M) as well as a knock-off that has shown up on eBay recently:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ignition-Conversion-Therm...SwYhdbApGI

Interesting note on the item above: the knock-off I bought was red and more shaped like the 6100M:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/122789550658?ul_noapp=true

The currently live link above is for a yellow one that looks a bit more like the Accel. I'm sure they both have the same innards as they're from the same seller. I ordered two but haven't installed them yet...but the kit did come complete with the heat sink paste and Molex connector block...it looks decent.

Hope this helps!
_________________
'75 Campmobile (former tin-top now with a SpaceRoof)
'73 Fastback
'52 BMW R67/2
'67 BMW R60/2
'55 Puch SGS250
http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-23040.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Gallery Classifieds Feedback
telford dorr
Samba Member


Joined: March 11, 2009
Posts: 2490
Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
telford dorr is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:36 am    Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump relay 433 906 059 16929 and Mallory Unilite Wiring Reply with quote

Do yourself a favor and bypass the fuel pump relay for the moment. Get the ignition issues worked out and completely working. Once that's done, then tackle the fuel pump relay. Divide and conquer!
_________________
'71 panel, now with FI

'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones

To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research - Steven Wright

In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh

All models are wrong; some are useful - George Box

More VW electrical at http://flowcon.us/td/ (available 9am to 9pm PST)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
gelos
Samba Member


Joined: September 08, 2006
Posts: 70
Location: Kansas City
gelos is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:55 am    Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump relay 433 906 059 16929 and Mallory Unilite Wiring Reply with quote

DougB: The distributor was brand new, well, never used anyway. I bought it several years ago and itís taken me that long to get the engine started (which Iím still working on).

All the info on the different modules was helpful. I ended up getting the 605 which conveniently Amazon carries (had a gift card!).

tellford dorr: you have a very good point. Always good to eliminate variables.
But I was having enough confusion about the wiring and wasnít sure how to go about bypassing it other than connecting to the battery.

I did kind of try that, I just put a manual switch in between which I would turn on while someone else turned the key. But the module was probably fried by that point and that seemed a bad way to go about it.

Whatís a better way to do that and where should the positive wire of the fuel pump go?

Thanks!
Todd
_________________
1975 vw bus,
Camper Special engine with dual Dellorto carbs.
Mallory Unilite distributer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
DougB
Samba Member


Joined: January 09, 2007
Posts: 955
Location: Falls Church, Virginia, USA
DougB is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:57 am    Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump relay 433 906 059 16929 and Mallory Unilite Wiring Reply with quote

Ah, ok re: the unused distributor. Sad about the module not working from the start, but good for you that the issue is easily identifiable, reasonably cheap to replace, and quick to fix. When the thing fails while driving it's also pretty easy to ID...engine dies, and you glide to a start, and no amount of cranking while the engine is warm will light it up again. Wait a bit, though, and sometimes you'll get it running again...but 3 minutes later it'll die again. Then turn on the ignition, hop out with the voltmeter and anything to block out the trigger light, and you get your answer. Last it happened to me I was in a travel lane so despite having the spare in the van (DEFINITELY carry a spare module) I didn't feel comfortable replacing it. The kicker: 1 mile from my house :-/
_________________
'75 Campmobile (former tin-top now with a SpaceRoof)
'73 Fastback
'52 BMW R67/2
'67 BMW R60/2
'55 Puch SGS250
http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-23040.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Gallery Classifieds Feedback
gelos
Samba Member


Joined: September 08, 2006
Posts: 70
Location: Kansas City
gelos is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:07 am    Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump relay 433 906 059 16929 and Mallory Unilite Wiring Reply with quote

I always like it when there's a problem with something and I get a clear answer!

How do you all take long trips in your bus? Seems like one has to take a spare everything with you. Though I assume I'll just get more comfortable with it the more I drive it.
That's tough luck on you breaking down in the travel lane. So close!
Your safety is more important though and you did the right thing.

Mallory also makes a Circuit Guard:
https://www.msdperformance.com/products/distributo...arts/29371

Do you think it's worth it?
_________________
1975 vw bus,
Camper Special engine with dual Dellorto carbs.
Mallory Unilite distributer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
DougB
Samba Member


Joined: January 09, 2007
Posts: 955
Location: Falls Church, Virginia, USA
DougB is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump relay 433 906 059 16929 and Mallory Unilite Wiring Reply with quote

Hehehe, we do take long trips in our '75 CS-powered Westy...we've hit every state on the east coast this year along on two big roadtrips...but yes, we also have spares of all FI components, a spare alternator, and more plus all the tools I need in the bus at all times. It's basically the entire area under the rear seat filled with tools and parts, books, first aid kit, and coveralls/gloves Smile

BUT, that said I've never had to pull out the parts on the road. I usually try to make everything right before I go - for the trip we took last week that meant replacing the starter, the battery + cable, and a CV boot 2 days before we left. But it all happened. I'd never want to pull out of the driveway thinking that something I already knew about *might* bring the whole trip to a screeching halt.

- Doug Smile
_________________
'75 Campmobile (former tin-top now with a SpaceRoof)
'73 Fastback
'52 BMW R67/2
'67 BMW R60/2
'55 Puch SGS250
http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-23040.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Gallery Classifieds Feedback
gelos
Samba Member


Joined: September 08, 2006
Posts: 70
Location: Kansas City
gelos is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump relay 433 906 059 16929 and Mallory Unilite Wiring Reply with quote

Good planning. Don't want that nagging feeling at the back of your head!

I figured I would do something like that, at least with tools. Just having the right tool is half the job!

I guess it's just a question of how extensive one's onboard spare part collection should be.
_________________
1975 vw bus,
Camper Special engine with dual Dellorto carbs.
Mallory Unilite distributer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Tcash
Samba Member


Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
Tcash is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump relay 433 906 059 16929 and Mallory Unilite Wiring Reply with quote

Old Post-New Twist (Tools/Parts/Materials list) FAQ
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
telford dorr
Samba Member


Joined: March 11, 2009
Posts: 2490
Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
telford dorr is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump relay 433 906 059 16929 and Mallory Unilite Wiring Reply with quote

gelos wrote:
Always good to eliminate variables.

Exactly!

Quote:
But I was having enough confusion about the wiring and wasnít sure how to go about bypassing it other than connecting to the battery.

I did kind of try that, I just put a manual switch in between which I would turn on while someone else turned the key. But the module was probably fried by that point and that seemed a bad way to go about it.

Whatís a better way to do that and where should the positive wire of the fuel pump go?

Disconnect the wire from the fuel pump going to the fuel pump relay and connect it to the battery, preferably through a switch and a fuse. To run the pump, simply turn on the switch, and the pump should run.
_________________
'71 panel, now with FI

'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones

To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research - Steven Wright

In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh

All models are wrong; some are useful - George Box

More VW electrical at http://flowcon.us/td/ (available 9am to 9pm PST)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
gelos
Samba Member


Joined: September 08, 2006
Posts: 70
Location: Kansas City
gelos is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump relay 433 906 059 16929 and Mallory Unilite Wiring Reply with quote

So, there's progress but no start.

I got the new ignition module installed and did the test to make sure the voltage dropped when the optical connection was blocked.

The voltage went down to about 9v at the most and when I unblocked it, I heard the fuel pump run for a sec. (the relay is still wired in).

I did the coil test and the spark looked yellow.

The engine turned and I smelled gas but it didn't catch.

I pulled out the #1 and #3 spark plugs and they seemed like they had gas on them. I didn't pull out #2 and #4.

I took off the filters from the carbs and looked down the barrels while I pushed the accelerator and I could see gas squirt in the front barrels but not the rear ones.

I have dual Dellorto DRLA 40 carbs with the rebuild/upgrade kit if that helps.

What else am I missing?

Thanks!
Todd
_________________
1975 vw bus,
Camper Special engine with dual Dellorto carbs.
Mallory Unilite distributer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Tcash
Samba Member


Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
Tcash is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump relay 433 906 059 16929 and Mallory Unilite Wiring Reply with quote

I have:
12v from Coil Positive to Ground
3.8 Ohms from Coil Positive to Coil Negative
1 Ohm from Coil Positive through ballast resistor
8810 Ohms from Coil Positive or Negative to center

You 8810 Ohms from Coil Positive to center. Seems way out of specifications.
thnx to mayor ratwell
Bosch Blue Coils http://www.ratwell.com/technical/BlueCoil.html
Bosch Blue coil (Brazil)
0 221 119 027 or 00012 (VW 043 905 115C)
turns: 150-1 (unverified)
primary: 3.4 Ohm
secondary: 7.79 kOhm

Do you have another coil you can throw in there?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
gelos
Samba Member


Joined: September 08, 2006
Posts: 70
Location: Kansas City
gelos is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:37 am    Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump relay 433 906 059 16929 and Mallory Unilite Wiring Reply with quote

I do still have the coil that was on it when I bought it.

It says Accel 8140c Super Stack on the side.
I can give that a try. The old engine was running with it
_________________
1975 vw bus,
Camper Special engine with dual Dellorto carbs.
Mallory Unilite distributer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
telford dorr
Samba Member


Joined: March 11, 2009
Posts: 2490
Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
telford dorr is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump relay 433 906 059 16929 and Mallory Unilite Wiring Reply with quote

By all means, put it on. Sounds like that ignition system was designed to use a special coil, as a stock VW coil has no need for and won't run properly with a "ballast resistor" installed (it's already current limited by its primary resistance).
_________________
'71 panel, now with FI

'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones

To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research - Steven Wright

In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh

All models are wrong; some are useful - George Box

More VW electrical at http://flowcon.us/td/ (available 9am to 9pm PST)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Bay Window Bus All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2018, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB