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'78 No Start ???
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UtahGOgear
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:30 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 No Start ??? Reply with quote

Just an update- it was a bad starter. Go figure. Got the new starter in today and it cranked right over just fine! Now to hook up the fuel lines and see if she fires up!

Thanks for your help to all- I know sometimes the solution is simple like just buy a new starter but it helps to know what goes where and why. Cheers!
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:19 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 No Start ??? Reply with quote

88z should have a wire from the battery terminal on the starter already in the FI starter/fuel pump sub harness.

I wonder if the mystery wire was for a dual battery relay?
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:05 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 No Start ??? Reply with quote

Connect the white wire from the battery pos+ to 88Z, there should be a Red jumper wire on 88Z also.

We have instructed you on how to perform the starter test. If it is doing nothing replace the starter.

Good luck
Tcash
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UtahGOgear
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:01 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 No Start ??? Reply with quote

Right- I've been chasing down 88Z from this diagram and a write-up on the double relays https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=334340
but man, I can't find where the heck it connects to before meeting up with the double relay. This thing has sure been hacked into so perhaps it's totally some random wire, but it still won't turn over at all.... I ordered a hot/hard start relay as the ignition wire (I think- it's the thinner red/white wire running to the starter solenoid) is so freaking toasted up it's like brown and crispy... but the PO had some kind of trash relay that would make the gear pop out on the starter but not turn and man that thing was rusted out- must have been a hot start or something and so for now hopefully the new hot start relay will get it to turn over and later on I'll replace the crappy looking wires and get things straightened up stock wise....

Before this relay comes in though just trying to get things in order. Also ordered a new ignition switch as I kind of thrashed the previous one with a screw driver haha but that will be here soon with the relay and I suppose we'll see... till then I'll try to wire things up per the diagram and get things cleaned up. Hopefully she turns over after ignition switch and relay is installed- we'll see!
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:00 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 No Start ??? Reply with quote

Looks like there is a red wire that runs from the battery "A" to 88Z on the double relay.
click on pick
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:01 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 No Start ??? Reply with quote

My guess is that someone used some kind of aftermarket battery cable and it came with a wire that is not needed. Tape it off well so that it can not ground out and melt things down or cause a fire. Maybe someone at one time used it for something, but it is not needed on a stock setup.
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UtahGOgear
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:29 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 No Start ??? Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
Are you sure the other end of that connects to the battery?, and not the ECU directly in front of the battery?


Yeah, it runs right off of the terminal that goes on the battery- like the terminal was cast with this wire running off of it.... the other one that looks like this runs from the ecu kind of and I plugged that one in on the - side of the coil.
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:27 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 No Start ??? Reply with quote

Are you sure the other end of that connects to the battery?, and not the ECU directly in front of the battery?
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UtahGOgear
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:08 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 No Start ??? Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here's a picture of this wire leading off the positive terminal of the battery
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:05 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 No Start ??? Reply with quote

Okay! So then the constant 12v power goes from the starter solenoid straight to the double relay.... but there's still this wire running off the + terminal of the battery (not the huge one running straight to the starter solenoid) and it's about 3 feet long, was black and thick but now is white and thinner (PO maybe spliced the white piece on?) and I have no clue where it's supposed to run to....

still cleaning things up though and really trying to get solid connections/grounds in the right locations this time so this thing can hopefully turn over for me.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:51 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 No Start ??? Reply with quote

On a Bay there is a wire that runs directly from the big 12+ lug on the starter solenoid to the double relay, don't know if this was copied over onto the Vanagon or not. The watercooled Vanagon had a funky split wire system coming off of the alternator with one wire going to the starter solenoid and one to the connector box. It is possible that this funky system was a carry over from an aircooled Vanagon as it certainly wasn't a go setup on the watercooled ones, don't have a clue as to its origin beyond knowing the VW seemed to have a problem with updating their wiring when they made changes to the fuel systems and ignition systems.
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UtahGOgear
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:42 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 No Start ??? Reply with quote

Shoot, I don't see any kind of stud or anywhere it would go off hand. There are two wires coming out of the larger part of the harness that runs across the motor, one is further back right by the air distributor in the middle of the motor ('78 FI Bus) and the other is more forward right before the connectors for the right double relay & series resistor. There are those two sensors thought, so I thought they just plugged into those (on the head of cyl. 3 and the other right next to the spark plug distributor)
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:36 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 No Start ??? Reply with quote

UtahGOgear wrote:

Question though- I don't know where the wire that goes off the + of the battery and somehow makes it to the double relay? Does it connect somewhere on the harness leading to the relay?


Not sure how it is done on an aircooled Vanagon, but on a waterboxer there is a junction box in the left front of the engine compartment with a hot stud in it that powers the relays.
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UtahGOgear
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:09 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 No Start ??? Reply with quote

It seems I had a live wire where it wasn't supposed to be. I've plugged everything I don't recognize completely and have started to fit new disconnectors to every wire that is hanging on by a thread (which are like half of them) then following the wiring diagram to plug them in.

Question though- I don't know where the wire that goes off the + of the battery and somehow makes it to the double relay? Does it connect somewhere on the harness leading to the relay? This full-time 12v wire might be what's got me held back. The previous owner has spliced this wire in a few different places for who knows what reason and the tip was just shredded when I got it- I taped it off but now I'm thinking this is what I need to complete the wiring to start... any clue where it fiscally goes on the harness/double relay?
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:38 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 No Start ??? Reply with quote

The weird thing is that what seemed to be the ground wire on the series resistors (didn't go to any resistors, rather in the middle of them all) wasn't really connected on the plug. I shoved it in there and spent some time getting it to fit on. With the ignition on though, the series resistors became hot to the touch, the metal cover burnt me pretty good and so I un-plugged it immediately.


Please do not hook up wires if you do not know where they go.

Click on this link and open it. Note the wire in the center of the series resistor that looks like speaker wire goes in the middle of the resistor plug. The wires that connects to it go to 88b on the double relay and the ECU.
Fuel Injection Series Resistor Pack Reinforcement How-to
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:22 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 No Start ??? Reply with quote

Connect the two terminal posts of the starter solenoid with a screwdriver, if the starter does not rotate, the malfunction lies in the starter. If the starter functions well, the malfunction lies in the solenoid. Either way the starter needs to come out.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The Red/white wire with the Red/black wire that has the push on terminal goes to the Double relay. This is what powers the fuel pump during cranking.

Pictures would be cool.
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UtahGOgear
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:49 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 No Start ??? Reply with quote

Tcash wrote:
What did it do when you tried to jump the starter.
Tcash wrote:
To link to copy and paste
Code:
[url=https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7466741#7466741]Jump Starter[/url]


Battery voltage should be around 12.6 volts fully charged.
Clean battery and all wire connections.

Jumping Starter
E-brake on
Wheels chocked
Shifter in neutral

Jump starter.

Thanks to JerryMCarter1
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Starter cranks, problem is in ignition circuit.
Starter does not crank, problem is in starter or starter circuit.

Good Luck


It made a bunch of sparks but no luck. I jumped both the + with the top terminal and the + with the one to the right and nothing- just a ton of sparks and that's it... before re-wiring the starter wires and getting rid of the relay the starter would pop the gear out to engage but wouldn't spin. Now nothing. The very thin white and red wire that connects to the terminal with the ignition wire on the top was way frayed and looked a bit black-ish. I spliced in another wire there because it broke right off the clamp when I went to pull it. I'm not sure where it goes- wire diagram is telling me it's the starter signal... not sure where it ends up but might try finding the outlet and just running a new one. Perhaps that's why the relay was on....

Anyway, even with jumping it nothing happens now, not even the gear popping out. The cover of the series resistors heats up like nothing else though so maybe I have a live wire running where it's not supposed to be. The wiring is sort of a mess- maybe I should take some pictures of what's going on in the engine bay and see if something is mad wrong.
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:28 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 No Start ??? Reply with quote

What did it do when you tried to jump the starter.
Tcash wrote:
To link to copy and paste
Code:
[url=https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7466741#7466741]Jump Starter[/url]


Battery voltage should be around 12.6 volts fully charged.
Clean battery and all wire connections.

Jumping Starter
E-brake on
Wheels chocked
Shifter in neutral

Jump starter.

Thanks to JerryMCarter1
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Starter cranks, problem is in ignition circuit.
Starter does not crank, problem is in starter or starter circuit.

Good Luck
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UtahGOgear
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:22 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 No Start ??? Reply with quote

Tcash wrote:
Tcash wrote:
The box is a starter relay.

Disconnect the battery.
Charge the battery.
Clean the connections on that.
Clean the connections on your battery.
Clean the connections on the starter.
Clean the ground strap connections on the transmission to the frame.
Make sure the starter bolts are tight.

Now that you have a charged battery and all the connections are clean. Try to start it with the key.

No luck, jump it at the starter.
Jump Starter

Still does not crank. Remove and replace starter.


Did you charge the battery minimum 12.6 volts and clean all connections?


Yes! I charged the battery to full and it's brand new, and yes I cleaned all of the connections on battery, starter, wires, transmission ground, everything all tight and secure!
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:08 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 No Start ??? Reply with quote

Tcash wrote:
The box is a starter relay.

Disconnect the battery.
Charge the battery.
Clean the connections on that.
Clean the connections on your battery.
Clean the connections on the starter.
Clean the ground strap connections on the transmission to the frame.
Make sure the starter bolts are tight.

Now that you have a charged battery and all the connections are clean. Try to start it with the key.

No luck, jump it at the starter.
Jump Starter

Still does not crank. Remove and replace starter.


Did you charge the battery minimum 12.6 volts and clean all connections?
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