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Mellow Yellow 74
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Joined: October 14, 2014
Posts: 1615
Location: Sydney, Australia
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 Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:09 am Post subject: Re: Stainless steel pipes argument. |
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| E1 wrote: |
| It seems every time my cooling system has a significant level fluctuation, from changing a hose to installing a water pump, we shortly after have the blue cap fail. I don't know if low coolant for even a short time overheats the air temporarily in the system and blows the cap or what, but the description you gave sounds suspiciously like a blue cap failure to me. |
I have the RMW tank and I replaced the cap today as part of my investigations. It turned out that I don't think there was anything wrong with the original. But I discovered today that I can lift the lever on the new cap and safely vent air/gas out of the coolant tank while it is hot. This is a really handy feature that the original cap does not have.
As part of my investigations I tried to bleed air from the rear bleeder valve but I still don't know whether anything came out. When this is opened does it bleed the air from the upper coolant hose back to the tank via the small hose or is air meant to come out around the bleeder on the valve? Can someone explain how the rear bleeder on a 1.9 is meant to work because this is still a mystery to me.
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1962 Karmann Ghia
1974 Deluxe Microbus
1985 Caravelle (Vanagon)
Last edited by Mellow Yellow 74 on Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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DanHoug
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Joined: December 05, 2016
Posts: 4800
Location: Bemidji, MN
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:35 am Post subject: Re: Stainless steel pipes argument. |
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there's inexpensive test kits for combustion gases in the coolant. they are worth the $45 if you are suspicious.
https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/b/lisle-4148/un...00/4414186
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-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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AndyBees
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Joined: January 31, 2008
Posts: 2332
Location: Southeast Kentucky
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:29 am Post subject: Re: Stainless steel pipes argument. |
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Reading through this Thread I see the vast majority of the conversation is about Plastic pipe replacement in the later models (86-up). I helped a friend install SS in his 90 Westy a few years ago. I was amazed at the larger diameter of the Plastic pipes vs the steel pipes in the pre-86 models. Considering that the T-stat opens gradually and is in effect a restriction in the cooling system, why did VW think the pipes needed to be larger? For my assistance, he gave me the Plastic pipes and they are in perfect condition, including the metal inserts.
The steel pipes in my 84 were nice on the inside but had the usual rust on the outside back near the engine area. When I was doing my TDI conversion, I noticed that the coolant hoses from the TDI engine fit the steel pipes perfectly and were too small for the Plastic pipes. So, I stripped the steel pipes, addressed the rust and re-painted them. 82k miles and 6 years later they are okay. However, if I could have found SS replacement pipes the same size as the OE steel pipes, I would replaced them.
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'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003. |
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?Waldo?
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Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:50 am Post subject: Re: Stainless steel pipes argument. |
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| AndyBees wrote: |
| However, if I could have found SS replacement pipes the same size as the OE steel pipes, I would replaced them. |
http://www.busdepot.com/251121397fpr |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50353
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:57 am Post subject: Re: Stainless steel pipes argument. |
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| I don't think there is much difference in the interior cross section of the steel pipes and the plastic pipes as the plastic pipes have thicker walls. |
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Zeitgeist 13
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Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12115
Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:37 am Post subject: Re: Stainless steel pipes argument. |
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Yeah, the separate step up sections on my ALH install are the weak link in the cooling system. Someday I may get 1.9 tubes to replace my plastic versions, though I'm not worried about the reliability of the tubes themselves.
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Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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Mellow Yellow 74
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Joined: October 14, 2014
Posts: 1615
Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:58 am Post subject: Re: Stainless steel pipes argument. |
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I have finally bled all the air out of my system after installing new stainless pipes, heater hoses and radiator and I have noticed that the system behaves differently to before. It seems to take much longer to get up to temperature and then the gauge sits lower than it did before the change. Previously the gauge rose and sat just above the warning light within about five minutes, but it now takes more than ten minutes and sits below the warning light.
I thought that the thermostat may be stuck open so I checked the coolant pipes using my hand and after ten minutes of driving the supply pipe was hot and the return pipe was cool which indicates the thermostat was still closed. After idling for a couple of minutes both pipes were hot which indicated that the thermostat has opened, so it looks like the thermostat is working ok.
I am thinking that the new stainless pipes and aluminium radiator discharges heat a lot more than the original steel pipe and copper radiator core, even when the thermostat is still closed as the supply pipe and radiator heats up. Has anyone else noticed this?
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1962 Karmann Ghia
1974 Deluxe Microbus
1985 Caravelle (Vanagon) |
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tjet 
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Joined: June 10, 2014
Posts: 3533
Location: CA & NM
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:22 am Post subject: Re: Stainless steel pipes argument. |
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| why not utilize a sacrificial anode to minimize the dissimilar metals reaction? |
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Mellow Yellow 74
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Joined: October 14, 2014
Posts: 1615
Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:52 am Post subject: Re: Stainless steel pipes argument. |
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| tjet wrote: |
| why not utilize a sacrificial anode to minimize the dissimilar metals reaction? |
A sacrificial anode does not minimise dissimilar metal corrosion - it promotes it so the anode corrodes rather than whatever it is protecting. But it is not necessary in a coolant system because the coolant has a corrosion inhibitor.
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1962 Karmann Ghia
1974 Deluxe Microbus
1985 Caravelle (Vanagon) |
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82westyrabbit
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Joined: March 02, 2015
Posts: 969
Location: Ma
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:19 am Post subject: Re: Stainless steel pipes argument. |
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| Yes my van warm’s up slower and runs a little cooler with the ss coolant lines than is did with the street coolant lines. I expected that because I had read in other threads that that’s what would happen. As for the Galvanic carostion it is real but there are lots of these pipes out there. I my case I have a cast iron block,aluminum head and a copper or brass radiator and heater core so I don’t think adding a little stainless steel in the mix’s is going to hurt anything. John |
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AndyBees
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Joined: January 31, 2008
Posts: 2332
Location: Southeast Kentucky
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:27 am Post subject: Re: Stainless steel pipes argument. |
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Yeah, as I recall, I never knew about busdepot when I started my conversion project over 10 years ago. And, most likely I never gave it any thought as to whether or not there were replacement pipes available. So, in the mean time with my refurbished OE pipes, I'll just buzz on until they show signs of rusting again.
It's good to know the SS pipse are available and might be advisable to purchase now for future use.
EDIT: I'm a bit surprised to hear the effects on cooling after installing the SS pipes and/or new aluminum radiator. Isn't the purpose of the T-stat to allow the engine to warm-up and maintain near constant spec temperature, even on a 0 day? Is the indication of running cooling due to less fan cycling?
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'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003. |
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:31 am Post subject: Re: Stainless steel pipes argument. |
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| AndyBees wrote: |
Yeah, as I recall, I never knew about busdepot when I started my conversion project over 10 years ago. And, most likely I never gave it any thought as to whether or not there were replacement pipes available. So, in the mean time with my refurbished OE pipes, I'll just buzz on until they show signs of rusting again.
It's good to know the SS pipse are available and might be advisable to purchase now for future use.
EDIT: I'm a bit surprised to hear the effects on cooling after installing the SS pipes and/or new aluminum radiator. Isn't the purpose of the T-stat to allow the engine to warm-up and maintain near constant spec temperature, even on a 0 day? Is the indication of running cooling due to less fan cycling? |
Neither the pipes or the fan should have any effect on warm up time. The pipes don't see more than a trickle of flow until the thermostat opens and the fan doesn't kick on until the left tank of the radiator is quite hot. |
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AndyBees
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Location: Southeast Kentucky
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:50 am Post subject: Re: Stainless steel pipes argument. |
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Wildthings, I agree ..
The circulating system (excluding to and from the Rad) dissipates a lot of heat. And, it is the return coolant from that part of the system that causes the T-stat to open, not the pipes going to the front or the Rad in the front.
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'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003. |
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MarkWard
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Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17155
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:06 am Post subject: Re: Stainless steel pipes argument. |
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I bought the BD pipes for my 82 diesel and they were not a direct match to the oe steel pipes I removed. I contacted BD at the time and they were surprised to hear that.
Because I have converted to a TDI, I was able to get the BD pipes to work in my application. The difference is where the SS pipes enter the engine compartment.
Probably one of those 83 and on things.
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Michael4104
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Joined: February 09, 2014
Posts: 340
Location: Livermore, Ca
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:45 am Post subject: Re: Stainless steel pipes argument. |
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Forget those stupid metal pipes and use this 1 1/4” hose instead.
https://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/s...haust+Hose
I also used the 3/4” for my intercooler hose.
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1990 Wolfsburg Carat with new poptop.
1985 Westy now sporting a 1995 Jetta ABA 2.0L. Sold |
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Mellow Yellow 74
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Joined: October 14, 2014
Posts: 1615
Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:19 pm Post subject: Re: Stainless steel pipes argument. |
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| 82westyrabbit wrote: |
| Yes my van warm’s up slower and runs a little cooler with the ss coolant lines than is did with the street coolant lines. I expected that because I had read in other threads that that’s what would happen |
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Thanks, I had seen a couple of mentions of the system running cooler in other threads but not about the effect on warm up and thermostat opening time.
| AndyBees wrote: |
| I'm a bit surprised to hear the effects on cooling after installing the SS pipes and/or new aluminum radiator. Isn't the purpose of the T-stat to allow the engine to warm-up and maintain near constant spec temperature, even on a 0 day? |
The thermostat bypasses the radiator and recirculates the coolant through the engine on warm up and then maintains a minimum temperature once it reaches temperature. But the thermostat on a Vanagon controls the return flow from the radiator rather than the supply to the radiator. So if the system is losing heat through the coolant supply pipe to the radiator, it will take longer to warm up.
| Wildthings wrote: |
| Neither the pipes or the fan should have any effect on warm up time. The pipes don't see more than a trickle of flow until the thermostat opens and the fan doesn't kick on until the left tank of the radiator is quite hot. |
I wasn’t expecting it but the stainless pipes do seem to make a significant difference to warm up time and the supply pipe is getting quite hot even when the return pipe is still cold. Although there is no flow through the system before the thermostat opens there still must be movement of the water in the supply pipe to mix the hot and cold water (convective flow?).
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1962 Karmann Ghia
1974 Deluxe Microbus
1985 Caravelle (Vanagon) |
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:40 pm Post subject: Re: Stainless steel pipes argument. |
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| The stainless steel pipes can not change the flow rate and any coolant that does make it through the pipes on warm up is also going to be going through the radiator which would cool it right down to ambient so the pipes could add no more cooling. If your warm up has slowed I would be looking somewhere besides the pipes. |
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AndyBees
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Joined: January 31, 2008
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Location: Southeast Kentucky
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:08 pm Post subject: Re: Stainless steel pipes argument. |
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| Mellow Yellow 74 wrote: |
| AndyBees wrote: |
| I'm a bit surprised to hear the effects on cooling after installing the SS pipes and/or new aluminum radiator. Isn't the purpose of the T-stat to allow the engine to warm-up and maintain near constant spec temperature, even on a 0 day? |
The thermostat bypasses the radiator and recirculates the coolant through the engine on warm up and then maintains a minimum temperature once it reaches temperature. But the thermostat on a Vanagon controls the return flow from the radiator rather than the supply to the radiator. So if the system is losing heat through the coolant supply pipe to the radiator, it will take longer to warm up. |
I understand how the coolant flows. As far as I know, all water cooled VW engines flow "cooled" coolant back to the engine from the Rad via the T-stat. Coolant only flows back to the engine as the T-stat opens. If the coolant coming back is cold/warm/hot, the T-stat acts accordingly unless it is defective. And, a properly operating T-stat doesn't pop-open fully. It should gradually open and/or close depending on coolant temp. So, there is no way a new set of SS pipes and a new aluminum Rad are going to affect engine warm-up if the T-stat is functioning properly. As I alluded to previously, hot coolant circulating through the various components (expansion tank, by-pass, Oil Cooler, etc.), excluding the Rad circuit, is what heats the T-stat to the point it opens to allow cooler coolant to flow into the engine from the Rad return pipe. And, in the scheme of things, if the heater(s) flow is going, the engine will take much longer to warm-up.
I agree with Wildthings. I cannot imagine the piping to and from the Rad of any design or material affecting warm-up. As he suggested, there must be other issues at play.
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'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003. |
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Mellow Yellow 74
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Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:55 pm Post subject: Re: Stainless steel pipes argument. |
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So if it is not associated with changing the coolant pipes and radiator why would the warm up time have increased and why else would I be getting one pipe running hot and one running cold for the initial period of ruining and then both pipes running hot after a while. It seems that this indicates the thermostat is working so what else could be causing this?
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1974 Deluxe Microbus
1985 Caravelle (Vanagon) |
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82westyrabbit
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Location: Ma
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:28 pm Post subject: Re: Stainless steel pipes argument. |
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| Theoretically the stainless steel pipes shouldn’t have an effect on warm up. In fact if the thermostat is working properly the stainless steel pipes should have no effect on the temperature the engine runs either. But the fact is, this is exactly the result I have seen with the new stainless steel pipes I put in. I run a 180 degree thermostat. I tested the thermostat to verify correct operation before reinstalling it after changing the pipes. I think I will try a 200 degree thermostat when I get that far. The temperature has been hot in New England so this has not been a problem yet but I will put more effort into it as the temperatures cool down. When the weather gets cold here I will put the van away for the winter and attack some of the items that still need sorting out. John |
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