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RichBenn
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2005
Posts: 703
Location: Lake Tahoe, NV
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 Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:03 am Post subject: Re: Proper Gear Oil for Manual Transmission |
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Amsoil makes(made?) A gl4 oil I used with my Subie conversion. Couldn't buy locally, so I became a dealer for a year and bought some nice lubrication for my other cars - differentials, crankcases, and trannys. I hate their distribution model, but the products are good.
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Pcforno
Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2014
Posts: 575
Location: Santa Fe, nm
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| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:46 am Post subject: Re: Proper Gear Oil for Manual Transmission |
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Totally non- scientific opinion.
I’ve used 201 - was good, minimal wear on my filter medium. Hard shifts when cold
Now I use 202 - still minimal wear on my filter medium, always shifts easy, lower transaxle temps by almost 10 degrees.
So far so good. I’ve got somewhere around 25k on my GW rebuild Syncro. it’s got big tires, too much HP (260) I drive fast, and drive off road often. I do shift slowly, match RPMs, and mind the transaxle, but I don’t hesitate to use the full HP
Paul(gears) is now my new insurance policy since he’s got our backs with the shiny new goods, so I don’t mind experimenting and pushing the van a little
My .02 |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9618
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:36 pm Post subject: Re: Proper Gear Oil for Manual Transmission |
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| Pcforno wrote: |
Totally non- scientific opinion.
I’ve used 201 - was good, minimal wear on my filter medium. Hard shifts when cold
Now I use 202 - still minimal wear on my filter medium, always shifts easy, lower transaxle temps by almost 10 degrees.2 |
A well-done test supporting this would be very interesting.
Lower temperature is a proof of reduced friction.
Could be differences in the lubricant but I wonder if (some of) the reduced temperature was your a trans breaking in - bearings, gear faces, R&P burnishing together (becoming smoother) in the absence of metal particles (cuz you're filtered).
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Pcforno
Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2014
Posts: 575
Location: Santa Fe, nm
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| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:28 pm Post subject: Re: Proper Gear Oil for Manual Transmission |
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| Hard to say it was cause of the break in, Sodo. The change happened as soon as I changed it. Noticed it right away. IIRC , Syncro Jael reported the same thing |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9618
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:46 pm Post subject: Re: Proper Gear Oil for Manual Transmission |
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| Sodo wrote: |
| Lower temperature is a proof of reduced friction. |
Oops "friction" includes the resistance to stirring, heavy (viscous) oils run hotter simply from shearing, so a lighter synthetic will run cooler.
==== excerpted from How Oil Viscosity & Temperature Influence Bearing Function====
Unnecessarily viscous oils will become hot. ....... If users choose premium grade synthetic oils, they will enjoy a sizeable safety factor in lube applications.
Using lubricants with viscosities in excess of those needed may generate excess heat and actually work against operators.
=========
Temps are difficult to quantify on their own right. Ambient temp has a lot to do with trans temp. Speed, and weight, grade, headwind, firewood piled on the roof are all variables you'd have to hold constant. Which aint easy. Also with every oil change the oil you removed had break-in particles, which are gone now.
There are so many variables, all interrelated.
Thick oil shifts harder, which is not much fun, and gears crunching generate more metal trash. You need to start with a real thick oil - to hold film strength "when hot". But if the gearbox is temperature-controlled (as Syncro Jael, PCForno, FrankenSubySyncro, ejimmi, Flomulgator, Sodo etc) then do you get any benefit from viscous oils? The oil cooler preserves the viscosity of "normal oil". Viscosity i more provides more protection from some of the (really small) trash, because the oil film is thicker, the really tiny trash doesn't contact your precious metal bits. But what if you just keep your oil clean by changing it (or other advanced methods?) Do you need this viscosioty that causes heat and harder shifting?
I keep reading that Synthetic oils lubricate best. But (repeating) you can't use Synthetic in an old trans because it will quickly pollute itself by 'cleaning' and loosening abrasive sediment off the parts, ledges, etc. If you put in Synthetic, you might be wise to drain it and LOOK, and if it's not clear, then buy a new batch. Painful, but what is your end goal?
I have this same dilemma, my Lubrication Engineers Synolec 9919 ($100/gal) has 17,000 miles, is highly filtered, and 'darker' than I'd like it to be. Is it washing the walls of my (recently rebuilt) trans? Current plan is to drop $100 on another batch (and "Settle" the first) and see if it cleans up. This will take awhile.
I think a lot of folks would like to use Synthetic in their "old trans" but are wise not to do it. If you've ever seen the sedimentation of trash in an old trans and how you have to dig the stuff off centrifugal ledges with a screwdriver, there is NO WAY any flush can get that stuff off. But for a rebuilt trans where (presumably) all the gears and diff are clean, its mainly the black deposit on the trans case surface. I might call Swepco, ask them if their flush oil might be enough to prepare for Synthetic in a recently rebuilt trans. SWEPCO 729 Premium Flushing Oil "A brief flushing cycle with SWEPCO 729 insures more complete elimination of old lubricants from the entire system. This is especially critical in compressor changeovers. It also removes loose deposits so they will not have a negative effect on compressor efficiency or operation."
I like the idea of Swepco 202 moly XP, because it has the chemical moly. But my doctor wants me to to use Synolec 9919 and I'm fine with his advice. But Synolec is kinda hard for a regular guy to get (5gal pails only) while Swepco 202XP is readily available on the internets.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9618
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:20 am Post subject: Re: Proper Gear Oil for Manual Transmission |
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Here’s one way to look at it (?)
If you have a big engine on this little transaxle it makes some sense to go after “that 7-11%” but its gonna cost about $100/gallon. If you monitor trans temperature (and your driving style doesn’t get the trans hot) you may not need the high-temp protection of speciaty oil. And in that case you can just focus on the longevity offered by clean lubricant, where frequent changes don’t cost much. Then all you have to do is choose oil that meets the GL4 or GL5 standard.
And if you have a WBX then just use GL4 or GL5. And employ “cleanliness” for longevity.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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gofast505
Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2019
Posts: 1
Location: Chesterfied MI
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 11:07 am Post subject: Re: PROPER GEAR OIL FOR MANUAL TRANSMISSION |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| Butcher wrote: |
Redline manual transmission oils are rated at GL4 and therefore it is safe for hypoid gears in a transaxle. They are not "transmission only" oils. |
Redline disagrees with you, from their site:
| Quote: |
| MTL, MT-85 & MT-90 are not for use in differentials with hypoid gears |
This is what Redline recommends for synchronized transaxle with hypoid differentials.
https://www.redlineoil.com/75w90-ns-gl-5-gear-oil
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Puttin in 87 syncro on redlines site says to use MT-90 75W90 GL-4 GEAR OIL. |
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tjet 
Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014
Posts: 3533
Location: CA & NM
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 4:23 pm Post subject: Re: Proper Gear Oil for Manual Transmission |
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| Swepco 201 in my syncro. Yes, it is expensive. You will not find it at walmart |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 8:16 pm Post subject: Re: PROPER GEAR OIL FOR MANUAL TRANSMISSION |
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| gofast505 wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| Butcher wrote: |
Redline manual transmission oils are rated at GL4 and therefore it is safe for hypoid gears in a transaxle. They are not "transmission only" oils. |
Redline disagrees with you, from their site:
| Quote: |
| MTL, MT-85 & MT-90 are not for use in differentials with hypoid gears |
This is what Redline recommends for synchronized transaxle with hypoid differentials.
https://www.redlineoil.com/75w90-ns-gl-5-gear-oil
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Puttin in 87 syncro on redlines site says to use MT-90 75W90 GL-4 GEAR OIL. |
I would tend to shy away from an oil that Redline actually says not to use with hypoid gears.
"MT-LV, MTL, MT-85 & MT-90 are not for use in differentials with hypoid gears" |
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MsTaboo
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 4098
Location: East Kootenay, British Columbia
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 8:38 pm Post subject: Re: Proper Gear Oil for Manual Transmission |
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I'm no oil expert at all, in fact I'm re-reading gear oil posts because I'm getting ready to break in my newly rebuilt front diff and transmission.
But here's a post from back in 2009 that might relate to this MT90 stuff:
| Jon_slider wrote: |
from
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Syncro/message/41463
More info for Redline.....or not.....discussion ?? Message List
Reply | Forward Message #41463 of 41516 < Prev | Next >
I was recently speaking with Tom Lengyel about what oil to use in the rebuilt
tranny he recently did for me.
He told me about a conversation he had just had with an engineer at Redline that
seemed like big news to me.....
The engineer told Tom that VW transaxles SHOULD NOT HAVE OIL IN THEM DESIGNED
FOR LIMITED SLIP DIFFERENTIALS...... which includes their own MT-90.
Redline makes a special oil for VW and other non-slip differential trannys.
It's termed "75-90NS"....the "NS", of course for "non-slip". It is a GL-5 oil.
I asked Tom about the past opinions held that GL-5 oils have additives that
damage brass syncronizers....his response was, "Old wives tale!?
So, per Redline engineers, if we choose to use a Redline oil....it should be
the 75-90NS....NOT MT-90.
====
The alternative lubes being discussed in this thread are Swepco 201 and 203, and Lubrications Engineers 9919
If anyone is interested in buying in on an order of LE 9199, its about $350 for 5 gallons, plus ship.. Thats about 20 dollars a quart, and for a syncro you need 6 quarts, 4.2 for the transaxle (acccording to Syncro.org, another thread on the samba says the bentley says 3.2 quarts, not sure if thats for a 2wd tranny, dont have my syncro bentley handy.. please confirm), and 1.6 for the front diff.. that would be $120 in gear oil for both front and rear.. |
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Currently:
'90 Syncro Westy 3 knob w/Zetec
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BrownLoaf
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2021
Posts: 94
Location: Bellingham, WA
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 11:00 pm Post subject: Re: Proper Gear Oil for Manual Transmission |
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75W90NS user here. For the reason quoted above. If you read through the Redline datasheets, it seems to be their only oil that is compatible with both hypoid gears and manual transmission synchronizers.
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83.5 Vanagon Riviera WBX 2.2 "Brown Loaf"
87 Vanagon Syncro Tin Top WBX 2.1 "Bubbles" |
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dobryan
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Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16505
Location: Brookeville, MD
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Homercules
Samba Member
Joined: June 04, 2010
Posts: 141
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Thu May 26, 2022 10:37 am Post subject: Re: Proper Gear Oil for Manual Transmission |
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Switched from 201 to 202 a couple of years ago. Shifts even better. Last time I checked the fluid was still a perfect unicorn blue and the amount of swarf was a mere smudge of black. No discernible metal. I'm happy.
I used MT90 in my truck and it was garbage, I'll never touch the stuff again after 2 transmission replacements. The second time my front bearing wore out and was whining so I put the used Swepco from the van (that still looked good) and it quieted down and I got 2 more years of casual use from that tranny! It now has Swepco 201 in a new transmission. Should last the life of the truck.
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89 Syncro |
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MsTaboo
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 4098
Location: East Kootenay, British Columbia
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| Posted: Thu May 26, 2022 10:50 am Post subject: Re: Proper Gear Oil for Manual Transmission |
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Good to hear the reports about 202, it's what I ended up buying to use as my final fill after break-in.
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Currently:
'90 Syncro Westy 3 knob w/Zetec
The information age has morphed into the age of disinformation and willful ignorance. Agnotology!
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michaelasnider
Samba Member
Joined: September 27, 2013
Posts: 369
Location: East Kootenays, Canada
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2022 6:48 am Post subject: Re: Proper Gear Oil for Manual Transmission |
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| MsTaboo wrote: |
| Good to hear the reports about 202, it's what I ended up buying to use as my final fill after break-in. |
Were you able to find locally? |
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jocoman
Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2016
Posts: 427
Location: Ottawa, Canada
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2022 9:38 am Post subject: Re: Proper Gear Oil for Manual Transmission |
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Gosh
I have MT-90 in my tranny, so this thread has me worried.
Up here in Ontario Canada, I can't find a source for the 202.
However my ride is 2WD, so maybe the MT-90 is ok?
I had someone recommend Fuchs brand (Titan Supergear 80w90) which is available up her.
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'86 Westfalia 2.0L Zetec
'97 Volvo 850 AWD Turbo
" The fun never stops" |
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dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16505
Location: Brookeville, MD
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2022 9:58 am Post subject: Re: Proper Gear Oil for Manual Transmission |
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| jocoman wrote: |
Gosh
I have MT-90 in my tranny, so this thread has me worried.
Up here in Ontario Canada, I can't find a source for the 202.
However my ride is 2WD, so maybe the MT-90 is ok?
I had someone recommend Fuchs brand (Titan Supergear 80w90) which is available up her. |
Amazon carries it.
I am also 2wd but I drive the heck out of mine.
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Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD
"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson
MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646
Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371
The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794 |
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jocoman
Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2016
Posts: 427
Location: Ottawa, Canada
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2022 10:29 am Post subject: Re: Proper Gear Oil for Manual Transmission |
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I can't find it on the Amazon.ca site, I think its only on amazon.com. Ordering from the .com site is super expensive. txs
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'86 Westfalia 2.0L Zetec
'97 Volvo 850 AWD Turbo
" The fun never stops" |
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MsTaboo
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 4098
Location: East Kootenay, British Columbia
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2022 10:50 am Post subject: Re: Proper Gear Oil for Manual Transmission |
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| michaelasnider wrote: |
| MsTaboo wrote: |
| Good to hear the reports about 202, it's what I ended up buying to use as my final fill after break-in. |
Were you able to find locally? |
No. Ordered online and picked up at our PO Box in Kalispell. It's been a real pain getting parts lately. Shipping to Canada has gotten ridiculous.
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Currently:
'90 Syncro Westy 3 knob w/Zetec
The information age has morphed into the age of disinformation and willful ignorance. Agnotology!
Help the fight against Truth Decay.
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DigiMatrix
Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2010
Posts: 450
Location: Up North Canada
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 9:47 pm Post subject: Re: Proper Gear Oil for Manual Transmission |
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| michaelasnider wrote: |
| MsTaboo wrote: |
| Good to hear the reports about 202, it's what I ended up buying to use as my final fill after break-in. |
Were you able to find locally? |
I got mine from Barry at Werke1. He had a drum of it and sold me 9 liters
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'91 Syncro Westfalia
soon to be 2.5 liter stroker WBX 10:1 comp
Digifant ECU with knock sensor and custom
cylinder selective knock control by me |
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