No click at starter Now With Updates Still need help

[Bob Brugge]

Had this bug for almost 4 years. The key I got with it was…faulty. When I got tired of the shake – jiggle - swear - repeat, I got a new key made and everything was fine. Every once in a while you turn the key and get nothing. No click no nada. This happens once every month and a half or so. Then it happens every few weeks, now it is every other day.

Put a new battery in it thinking the one that was in there was weak and running out of juice over time and becoming too weak to start it. New battery, new ends, new cables.

Up in the woods the other day and the starter starts cutting in and out while I am cranking it, like it is getting a circuit interrupted or something. So I figure it’s the ignition switch. This last winter it would sometimes stick over in the start position instead of snapping over to run when I let go of the key, and the same thing has been happening more often where you let go of the key and can hear the starter has not disengaged until you move the key.

I put a push button start in it and it works great … and then it doesn’t. I wired the button from the constant power side of the fuse box to the red and black wire for the ignition. There is a clear, yellowish 48 year old connector between where the wire runs out of the dash and before it dives in that tube. I just pulled the end out and mated it with my button.

Everytime I do something with this it works great … and then it doesn’t so I am at a loss. I have tightened up the solenoid wire end at the solenoid thinking it was getting crusty. That worked great…and then it doesn't. I can crawl under there at ay time and after a little contortionism get a wire from the hot lug on the starter to the solenoid and it kicks in right away.

The starter spins the engine right up maybe 99.99% of the time. Turn the key and off you go. Not sure what to check or where at this point.

From the tube that dives down at the reservoir for the brake fluid where does the wire go? Straight to the starter or somewhere else along the way?

Stupid thing runs sweet… and then it doesn’t

1970 beetle 1679 dp motor, dual baby Webbers, usual spaghetti mess under the bonnet, but not a lot of hacking.

Please don’t post schematics, I can’t read them well enough to know what I am looking at. Thanks in advance
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Keep on Dubbin'!

[VW_Jimbo]

Sounds like the ignition portion of the key is failing. Very common issue. Very common. You need to change that out. Repair the wiring you changed and then it should work as intended.

The wire by the tube is the brake light switch wiring, if no one has changed or improvised anything.

The harness actually enters the cabin along the inside quarter panel area. Run down the heater channel on the drivers side and goes into the rear quarter panel, right in back of the regulator.

The starter wire crosses over the tunnel, clipped to the rear seat support bar and goes through a grommet between the battery and the tunnel. It then goes straight to the starter from there.
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Jimbo

There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!

[ashman40]

I recommend you take the following actions:

Using your ignition switch or the manual starter switch you installed, test the voltage that is reaching the starter solenoid. Either at the #50 solenoid terminal or at the #50 junction under the rear seat. You want to see 12.0v+ reaching the starter solenoid each time you turn the key/press the button. If the voltage is low or intermittent you can suspect the wiring. After all it is 40yrs+ old!

As a proactive action, using a wire brush and/or sandpaper clean ALL electrical contacts from the battery to the dash; to the ignition switch and to the starter. This will help increase the current that makes it to the starter solenoid. While you're at it, clean the battery cable connection at the starter as well.

Install a new ignition switch (or rebuild your old ignition switch). If your ignition switch was showing signs of going bad with the starter circuit, the other circuits like the #15 ignition are probably not too far behind. Better to replace the ignition switch NOW before it strands you on the side of the road.

Install a Hard Start Relay. This will reduce the distance the current travels on the way to the starter solenoid. The HSR will also protect your (new) ignition switch from excessive current; prolonging its life.

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AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}

[gt1953]

I had an ignition switch issue, what I did to verify and eliminate the switch is wired switches in parallel to the ignition switch. It verified everything in the rear starter area was fine. Problem was the switch. It was coming apart, the little ears that are bent over to hold it together were loose. Snugged them up and the switch was fine after that.
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Volkswagen: We tune what we drive.
Numbers Matching VW's are getting harder to find. Source out the most Stock vehicle and keep that way. You will be glad you did.

72 type 1
72 Squareback
({59 Euro bug, 62, 63, 67, 68, 69, 73 type ones 68 & 69 type two, 68 Ghia all sold})

[Cusser]

I've replaced the electrical part of the ignition switch on both my 1970 and my 1971 exactly once each in the 45 years I've owned them. But this was at least 20 years ago for each, before cost-savings programs and parts started being made "elsewhere"....
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297

[ashman40]

[Bob Brugge]

[60ragtop]

install the relay under the back seat
Not a Ford style solenoid but a simple square relay

instructions

_________________
Rick
Certified Mechanic by the State of Michigan in 1977
ASA certified in 1987
Certified Hunter Wheel Alignment Master Technician 1986

[Bob Brugge]

[ashman40]

[Bob Brugge]

Thank you so much for the detailed instructions.
Can I be reasonably assured that the issue isn't the starter itself?
I guess if I am getting 12 ish volts at the starter I would know the answer... Lemme break out the thing o meter and see just how bad I can screw this up
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Keep on Dubbin'!

[Bob Brugge]

Up Date:
The solenoid wire, the very one that I tightened up the connection on, the very one that I had to argue with to get it on the spade, that one was laying on the trans

I knew it was on good before and I know it is on good now. tighter than it used to be even.

EXPLETIVES deleted repeatedly.

Thanks so much for the input guys.
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Keep on Dubbin'!

[Cusser]

I knocked off my starter wire adjusting the clutch cable on my 1970. I couldn't get it to stay on tight, I cut off the replacement terminal and crimped on a new one.
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297

[Bob Brugge]

I love my car but I hate my wiring. I mean hate it bad.

So in my quest to make everything just freakin' work, I got around to my tail/brake/blinker lights. They have always been dicey and since I feel so confident sanding spade terminals until my fingers bleed, why not give it a whirl?
I got my tail lights to work. I have one brake light working, and thats where the fun stops.

I am hoping the red wire that runs to my left side turn signal is the correct one.
With my multi meter plugged into the circuit I am getting right around 3.5 volts and no flash. They used to work everywhere but the left rear corner and now they don't work anywhere, neither do the hazards.

I did find 5 wires for 4 circuits under the left tail light, which is just ...magical.

Tracing them off of the block that hides behind the tar board on the left side of the engine compartment, I have white for tail lights, black and red. They were running to the brake light and the turn signal. I have a light blue wire running from the fourth position on that block behind the tar board to the back up lights which don't work.

So first, do I have the right colors running to the right things?

Second, Since I have all new shiny ends on everything I could find and make shiny, where should I look and for what?

Third, in the white plastic sheath that runs the wires through the body and the fender, there is a 5th wire, could be white, where would that go?

Under the tar board I have a ground wire(brown anyway) that just has the female end of the spade terminal with nowhere to go, is that for some option I may not have, or did/does it go somewhere?


Let me know if you need pics.
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Keep on Dubbin'!

[ashman40]

[Bob Brugge]

I hooked up the ground wire and sumbitch, I have brake and tail lights on BOTH sides!!

I still have no turn signals or hazards. When I was polishing all my ends under the dash the cheapie wire and connections that ran to the dash indicator light fell apart.
I could hear it clicking before that. All the blinkers worked before except the left rear. Where do I even start on this spaghetti? Everything quit working when I removed the rear apron, I supported the rear fenders so that they were not hanging by the wires, apparently not quite good enough? Checking behind the tar board on either side of the engine I get no juice to either side of the rear at the blinker circuit.

Edit: I started poking around under the bonnet, and discovered that I have power to one leg the flasher relay when the turn signal is on and power to another leg when it is turned off. I also noticed that the hazard switch is an integral part of the circuit. Oh, that and it is turned so that all of the connections are facing the glovebox, which has to be removed if I want to access those connections.
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Keep on Dubbin'!

[Bob Brugge]

New update:
Chasing wires. I have a fat red wire running from my fuse panel to the 4 way switch. I have a fat white wire running from one leg of the flasher relay back to the 4 way flasher switch and a light blue wire running from the switch to a different leg of the flasher relay. I have two black wires one with a green stripe and one with a white stripe, they run to 4 way connectors with one leg going to each light, front and rear of a side of the car. the 4th leg runs back to the blinker switch at the steering column. There is no power anywhere here.

Thats as far as I have gotten. No blown fuses, nothing simple disconnected, that I can see. I also have three brown wires running from under there somewhere. One actually is a ground, there is a 2nd with a white stripe that you would think is ground, but goes to a silver box, maybe 1.25" x 2.75" with the vw logo and a 311 part number. The last brown wire runs to one of those see through connectors where it dives into the front wiring loom. Maybe for the horn?

Not even sure where to go from here.
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Keep on Dubbin'!

[Bob Brugge]

Anyone?
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Keep on Dubbin'!

[SubbinNCali]

Can you post a pic?

[ashman40]

This simplified diagram from Speedy Jim's site will help you understand the wiring for the turn signal switch and the E-Flasher switch:

Key points to notice in the above diagram:

- There are two sources (INPUT) for power (fuse #15 and #30) in the upper middle of the diagram. #15 is the fuse that powers the turn signals; #30 powers the 4-way E-Flashers. Both run to the E-Flasher switch. The E-Flasher switch being ON/OFF determines WHICH is the source of power is in use.

- Whichever power source is selected, the E-Flasher switch OUTPUTs via the white (+) wire to power the flasher relay via the #49 or (+) terminal on the flasher relay.

- The #49a terminal of the flasher relay is the "pulsing" OUTPUT. Even if there is 12v on the INPUT of the flasher relay it will not start pulsing until there is a path to ground thru the corner bulbs.

- Depending of the model year the wires coming off the flasher relay #49a terminal will be blue or black/green/white and run to the :
-- Turn signal switch
-- E-Flasher switch (#49a)
-- Turn indicator lamp at the bottom of the speedo

- While the E-Flasher switch is OFF the bottom half of the switch in the diagram is disabled and does nothing.

- When the E-Flasher is ON, the pulsing power from the flasher relay coming IN on the #49a terminal is routed to the TWO OUTPUT terminals L and R where they will power all four corner bulbs.

- It is hard to see, but the L and R OUTPUT of the turn signal switch and the L and R OUTPUT of the E-Flasher switch come together at the 4-way junctions you described. All the wires for the L junction will be black/white. The wires for the R junction will be black/green. From each of the two junctions one wire runs to the front and one to the rear turn signal bulb on each side of the car.

- The E-Flasher switch powers BOTH the LEFT and RIGHT sides lights when ON

- The turn signal switch powers EITHER the LEFT or RIGHT side lights when ON