Lingwendil's 1776 build thread

[Lingwendil]

A while back I pulled the 1776 out of my 73 super, it was leaking oil like crazy from the passenger side of the engine, and running really shitty with lots of noise on the passenger head, and it looked like it wasn't sealing at the cylinder to head area. I didn't build this engine, but it seemed to make a good bit of power, although it always leaked oil, so we'll see how it looks. Got it mounted up on the engine stand, and pulled a head to start. Looks like both exhaust valves were about to drop and also looks like the edges of the pistons were eroding so much that it made a step inside the cylinder at the head This is just the passenger side head. I'll pull the other side later today.

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[jason]

It does look like the piston was making contact with step in head. Step is wrong way. Wonder what your rod bearings look like.

[vwracerdave]

Looks like the engine sat for a while with water in the cylinder and corroded the piston. I'd tear the whole engine apart and rebuild.
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[Lingwendil]

Plan is to split the case and give everything a good look, then go from there. This engine was daily driven for a year, 120-175 miles daily, six days a week for a year before it was pulled. I want to give it a different cam (unknown what's in there now) unless it looks new-ish and is a decent grind, and maybe go up to thickwall 92s while it's apart if it looks good enough, worse case I have another block already machined and ready to use if this one needs too much work. Preliminary plan is bearings, AA 500 heads and piston/cylinder set, and whatever cam would go well with those and a Vintage Speed sport muffler, stock heater boxes, and kadrons. Going for a smooth torquey daily driver with good MPG and some pep.
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73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!

Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884

Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087!

[Lingwendil]

Well, the other side doesn't look near as bad, but I've got a cracked spark plug boss on at least one chamber. Continuing teardown.

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73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!

Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884

Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087!

[Lingwendil]

Case needs machine work for sure, the markings on the center main bearing are pounded into the journal.

Cam is an Engle 110 on an EP12 blank, with an aluminum bolt on gear, that has some markings on the teeth that make me nervous.

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73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!

Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884

Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087!

[Lingwendil]

On the bright side, I've got myself a counterweighted DPR crank, and the journals all look very nice, the flywheel end could use a polish, but all the others look good. The flywheel that was on this engine was a lightened original German VW that was eight-dowelled, and will be going back on.

It's pretty noticeable that the rod bearings have some marks, but as long as the journals measure out well I think that everything should work well with some new bearings.

Pardon the blurry pics in some spots, almost dropped my phone a few times due to oily hands.
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73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!

Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884

Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087!

[Lingwendil]

Not pictured, but the oil pump looks like a 30mm and has some gnarly looking teeth, and has an aluminum full flow cover that needs resurfaced before use, so I'll likely use the steel cover that I have from Sewell Speed Shop, and I've got a blueprinted 26mm Shadek pump that I'll likely use, assuming it fits the case well.

Also of note, there is a large amount of thick, somewhat stiff, black sealant around the oil pump sealing surface, and at the case halves.


So far, the verdict is, heads are trash, I'll strip the studs, springs, and retainers/keepers to keep on hand for spares. The pistons on one side are trash, so I'll likely toss them all as to not keep a mismatched set around. Case isn't useable as is, but I'll see how much it needs to decide if I want to put the time into it later. Cam actually looks very good, but I'm not hot on reusing it, and the lifters look pretty good, but I'll buy a new set with whatever cam I end up using. They fit very nicely in the bores, thankfully. Crank gears and spacers all look great. Rods look great, 311B original VW, bushing look and feel great. Once cleaned up I'll check sideplay and straightness, weigh them all and go from there.

So, looks like I'm looking at-

Rod bearings
Main bearings
Cam bearings
Cam
Lifters
Pistons/cylinders
Heads

I've already got a good case that's already machined first over on main bearings and thrust, already opened up for 90.5/92 cylinders, and set up for full flow.


So, plan for the engine is to use it with my Vintage Speed sport muffler (this one in particular- http://toplineparts.com/vw-vintage-speed/classic-superflow-vw-bug-exhaust-system-155-703-052sf.html) stock heater boxes, and stock original Kadron carbs, that were just rebushed last year and work great. I'm thinking of going with these heads-

https://aapistons.com/collections/cylinder-heads-c...2?coback=1

With my carbs and exhaust, what would be a good cam/lifter choice? I'm planning on stock rockers on solid shafts, with CB performance rhino foot adjusters (since I already have them) and would rather not go with higher ratio rockers, or anything too aggressive or harsh to the valvetrain. I've heard lots of good things about split duration cams with use on dual 1bbl setups, and was interested in trying something like that, but I don't want to get too crazy on lift. Would something like the Web 218/119 be a good choice, or would it be too much for this engine?

https://vwparts.aircooled.net/Web-Cam-Type-1-Split-Duration-Camshaft-Grind-218-p/00-562.htm

Suggestions on cams would be much appreciated.


Also, the age old question, should I keep it 90.5, or go thickwall 92? Cost is practically the same, and I'm thinking longevity and fuel economy will be similar enough to be a wash, but I might get a smidge more noticeable power I suppose.
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73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!

Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884

Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087!

[gt1953]

{[Suggestions on cams would be much appreciated.]}
On the cam suggestions, you have to look at the application of what the engine will be doing? Pumping water, daily commuter, weekend run and fun driver, pushing a type 2. With that it will help narrow down the suggestions, which there will be numerous.
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72 type 1
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[Lingwendil]

Daily driver. Morning commute is mostly steady highway miles, afternoon traffic is stop-and-go, but my schedule changes often so sometimes I end up in steady traffic both ways, or gridlock both ways. I'm not a speed demon, but I like a good off-the-line response, and like to get up to cruising speed quickly. I usually cruise at around 3200-3500 RPM when not in traffic. My commute is usually from 150-175 miles daily! Sometimes less if I take public transportation (BART/Caltrain) to avoid really bad traffic...

Primary concern is something that will be reliable with routine maintenance, won't require crazy amounts of compression, and runs cool.

I'd rather stay with single valve springs too.





I'm not a racing sort of guy, but I like a peppy engine.
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73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!

Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884

Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087!

[FreeBug]

If I understand correctly, you want bottom and mid- range, upper rpm less important to you. For twin carbs, you need to keep the intake duration on the mild side, as you mentioned the word "smooth"... Cam Ideas :

CB 2280 "cheater" cam. But it might only extend your rpm by 300 or so compared to stock, depending on heads, etc... it's no screamer.

I've read good things from reputable sources ( we all know who) about the CB 2239 (IIRC?)

Some cams are so efficient at low rps, the torque comes on so strong, it takes away from "smoothness". I'm thinking FK-65.

I'm really tempted to try the Web 218/119, but I think people who understand that I'm really just a grumpy old man steer me away...

[Lingwendil]

I've used the 2280 on a few engines in the past (killer single port cam, especially with a pair of ICTs!) and really like them, so I was sort of thinking of one if I couldn't get any other ideas. Not to sound contrarian, but I wanted to try something different this time I suppose.

I've heard the 2239 is a nice mild cam, and supposedly is a good choice for fuel economy... I hear it's kinda/sorta like a W100?
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73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!

Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884

Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087!

[Clatter]

Did you like your Engle W110?

You ran it with dual springs or singles?

FWIW,
I was always disappointed with a W100 on a similar motor.
It always just kind of fell on its face...
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Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[Alstrup]

Hello.
A couple of things.
Since you want to swop cam anyway (which I think is a good call for the overall combo you are laying out) I think someting like this:
That muffler kills power above approx 5300 rpm anyway, so no need to chase power beyond that point. Stock heater boxes, check. Kadrons, check. - get them modified for vacum outlet. Do the air cleaner brace mod. Consider 30 mm venturies too.
Cam. while I like the 218/119 for its power I tend to go even lower on Kadron carbed engines to get a better idle (I´m a sucker for a clean and even idle. But if you are ready to accept a somewhat rough idle go ahead and use it.) There are more than one reason to why I for one prefer the CB 2239 over the W100. The main being that the 2239 is significantly more accurate in the grind than the W100 meaning that a the end of the day the engine will run quieter, more even, better power and will be easier to dial in. If you get a W100 that is accurate the difference is minor. - Buy an adjustable cam gear. Set the cam up on 106 ILC or as close as you can.
WRT heads. The AA500 heads are actually nice heads. But in your case I lean towards a set of Tims ported super stock. These heads work very well with dual sgl throat carbs.
As always, perfect deck height and correct CR play a significant role to both power and a cool running engine. Normally I would set such an engine up with 9-1, but taking your ambient into consideration I think 8,7 would be more like it.
Ignition. You can go "fancy" with a locked 009 and a Black box or similar or go "old school" with an SVDA distributor. A 113 905 205 or 205L would be good candidates.
Oil cooling. On higher power engines I ALWAYS add a thermostatic controlled external oil cooler to take the edge out of the temps in hot weather or when the engine is working hard. I use the Mocal sandwich units. http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Mocal-Thermostatic-Sa...dapter.htm I usually take the thermostat out and replace it with one that has 5-8 degrees higher opening temp so the oil gets warm enough before circulation begins. A small cooler like this http://vwparts.aircooled.net/MESA-Style-Oil-Cooler-24-Plate-Cooler-ONLY-p/oil-cooler-only-24mesa.htm Installed so it gets some ram air does wonders.

Built well you will have yourself a solid 95ish hp engine that makes power from just about idle to a little over 5000 rpm.

I know it is not directly comparable. but 2 years ago i built a 2160 bus engine for a split bus w. a "freeway flyer" transmission which meant that the engine needed to bleed torque from very low rpm. I used the 2239 as a base. This enbgine pulls 160 Nm torque at 2000 rpm topping at just over 200 Nm. The numbers alone does not say that much, but two weeks ago the stage 1 clutch with a Daikin disc gave up and fried itself. That´s the kind of power it makes Scale it down to your engine size, and you will have an idea about what it can do.

T

[Brian_e]

I agree with the 2239. One of my favorite simple daily driver engines was a 1776, 2239, kads, 9.0:1, light flywheel, cheap 1 3/8" header, and ported 130cfm 35x32 heads. I used a stock crank and everything was balanced, but you have a nice CW crank, so use that.

I also built a 1915 with a 218/119, kads, 9.0, 1.5" sidewinder, and some nice ported 145cfm 37x32 heads. This engine is a blast. It rips and most people don't expect it after seeing the kads. It does have a little lumpier idle like Torben mentioned.

For a simple cheaper daily engine, I would go with the slightly smaller 1776, 2239 combo. Mine got really good mileage after some simple tuning. You will also save some money with the cheaper CB cam and lifters over the Web parts.

AA 500 heads with 35x32 valves, single springs, stock rockers on solid shafts will be perfect. Do some basic port work to them and get a good valve job done. Use AA p&c also. Make sure to get the deck height right close to .045".

Brian

[74 Thing]

Who does your case work in the area?
How do you like that full flow cover by S?
How did you get the 8 dowel flywheel separated from the crankshaft-I am have a difficult time with one right now and the motor is together?
Alstrup and Brian E if the carbs change from Kadrons to dual two barrels, would your cam recommendation change from the 2239?

Thanks

[Brian_e]

I have not used the 2239 with dual 2 barrels. It will idle much better than any kadron engine once set for sure. I don't think the 2239 would kill the combo with IDF's, but it might be the new limiting factor for the upper end power. . It would probably still drive pretty nice with lots of low end.

With dual IDF's on smaller daily engines or bus engines, the straight Web 218 and decent heads is really hard to beat.

Brian

[Lingwendil]

[Alstrup]

For the life of me, I REALLY do not understand why you want to rely on a pre 1960 ignition curve that was designed for a low compression hemi headed engine. I know what they say about the 019 and 010. To me it is just plain stupid. - Yes, if you have a low dcr engine like old school Berg or something similar it is the way. But once you step into the new world with much higher DCR and efficiency they are simply obsolete. - You can of course start with it and then save up/and/or spend a little time finding the right parts for your set up. That would make sense.

You got a pm

T

[Lingwendil]

As to the distributor, I definitely hear where you're coming from. I use it because it works well, is relatively versatile, and was available. Better than an 009, but there are of course other options that can definitely improve on it for sure. I had considered CB black box, or Magnaspark digital, or something else eventually, but I want to focus on the bottom end first. I'm not married to it by any means, and I'm definitely not one of the cast iron or bust types. I'm not swimming in enough cash to splurge on exotic setups without saving up for a good while. As it is I'm financing the engine rebuild by selling off a couple rifles and some gear I've been sitting on for a while



I do want to look into other ignition options later on. I've even considered Megasquirt ignition only setups. In particular, of some of the available options, the Daytona Sensors TCS-1 looks pretty useful, similar to the MSD timing control solutions, although more research is needed, but that's another show

http://www.daytona-sensors.com/tcs-1--timing-control-system.html

A discussion a while back this was brought up by Modok, and it looks potentially very nice, should have similar functionality to the black box, all said and done. Even can use a MAP sensor.

http://nebula.wsimg.com/7d1431ada7cf5b57349f745727...oworigin=1




Back to the bottom end...


As for the cam gear, would it be better to go with a basic gear-

http://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1525.htm

The dial-a-gear-

http://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1492.htm

Or the adjustable cam gear-

http://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1419.htm

For lifters, I'm assuming these will be a good choice here-

http://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1511.htm



For main bearings, I was looking at using Silverline steel-backed bearings, after the positive results I hear from them, unless there's a compelling reason to use something else/better, apparently Gary Berg likes them-

https://aapistons.com/products/sliver-line-main-bearings-for-type-1

Would Kolbenschmidt mains be better? They seem a little tricky to hunt down at times, and I hear they can go eiher way if not buying NOS... But I want some experience based opinions if at all possible, not just "my buddy says" type of advice



For rod bearings, I hear that Clevite 77 are the best choice. Is this still true these days? Looks like they are available straight from Mahle still, with free shipping even-

https://mahle.partnumber.company/search?q=CB-780P


I'm unsure on cam bearings. Any suggestions? Any idea who makes the ones from CB? Should I just go with Mahle here too?

http://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1849.htm

Are the Silverline double-thrust sets good quality? I can't seem to find much information on them really-

https://aapistons.com/collections/engine-bearings/...-std-trust


The goal is to clean everything up, and order the cam and bearings in the next few days if possible, and perhaps the pistons/cylinders as well.
_________________
73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!

Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884

Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087!