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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7219
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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 Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:51 am Post subject: Re: 1776 post mortem, prepare for carnage! |
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The 1419 is what you want.
These days Silverline is better than the repacked KS. But do check them before assembly.
Clevite is good. Havent had problems with Mahle rod bearings yet. But I have also not been so active with building ACVW´s for the last year or so.
Cam bearings, definitely Silverline.
There are definitely other options wrt igntion control than the BB. The BB is just the best known within the ACVW industry. The Magnaspark definitely has potential. But I´m not entirely sold on it yet. I have experienced some issues with it that needs to be sorted out. Once that´s done I think it will be a killer product for the money.
T |
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Lingwendil
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: 1776 post mortem, prepare for carnage! |
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Well, looks like I'll do the clevites from Mahle, and Silverline on the cam/mains then. Easy enough 
Of course the 31mm lifters are out of stock at CB... Are there any alternatives for them? I've heard there are some others that will work, but nothing from anyone reputable to confirm. I hear Engle lifters should work too...
They are a good bit more expensive if bought elsewhere, and last time I waited on parts to come back in stock the wait was way too long for me... Should I just bite the bullet and go for the lightweights? otherwise I'll end up paying $28 more by the time I order them somewhere else anyway once factoring in shipping and markup from other vendors, although I suppose I can minimise that a bit by buying the cam/lifters from a reseller altogether...
These are the same product as the CB 31mm, correct?
https://aapistons.com/collections/camshaft-gears-v...e-big-foot
http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Eagle-Lifters-Cam-Followers-Type-1-Engines-Set-p/eagle-lifters.htm
Ugh. it looks ike the 1419 isnt available at aircooled.net either, and their selection of adjustable gears seem to be all straight cuts. SHould I just go for a fixed gear, like the ones at AA?
https://aapistons.com/collections/cam-gears/products/vw-type-1-aluminum-cam-gear
I guess I could do one of these, I've used them in the past without issue, free shipping helps, I'm fairly convinced that most of CB's stuff is rebranded/resold from the same castings on some stuff anyway...
https://www.mooreparts.com/empi-21-2510-bolt-on-adjustable-cam-gear-for-vw-air-cooled-engines/
Ordering from different vendors sucks 
The shipping adds up so fast, and all the extra markup really adds up too, especially from certain vendors reselling parts in general. I don't want to be cheap, but I don't want to unnecessarily blow money on shipping from a ton of different shops if I can help it, so long as I don't sacrifice quality.
Maybe I'll just bang my head on my desk and order just the cam and gear from CB, and the lifters from AC.net, even though the markup and shipping are fairly high...
_________________
73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!
Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884
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FreeBug
Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2012
Posts: 4278
Location: deepest, darkest Switzerland
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:15 pm Post subject: Re: 1776 post mortem, prepare for carnage! |
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| I've never used that cam myself, but i doubt you need wide lifters. Look at the wear patterns. Those in the know might chime in. |
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Brian_e
Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009
Posts: 3293
Location: Rapid City, SD
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:29 pm Post subject: Re: 1776 post mortem, prepare for carnage! |
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I just use these in small engines with CB cams. 31mm will just add more weight. I also reuse stock pushrods cut down with a 2239.
http://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1512.htm
I have had better luck with mahle cam bearings in the last year or so. Way less work to make them fit than the Silverlines. On engines like yours, I just use all mahle bearings. I am pretty sure that is what CB carries.
I am kind of bitter about aftermarket cam gears. I had two go bad on me. They were not CB gears, but the super generic ones everyone sells. None of them seem to fit tight enough. From now on I only use CB straight cuts or stock vw magnesium gears drilled and countersunk it use my stash of extra CB offset washers. The CB straight cuts are no where near as noisy as most people complain about. Cheap ones are rather noisy. The problem with the stock vw gears is you need a large stash to get one to fit correctly. I bought out two closed shops, and I have managed to hoard about 20 gears now, so I can fit the +/- sizes till it's perfect. Not sure what to tell you there.
Don't throw a bunch of extra parts at this thing. Reuse as much of the stock tin as possible. Stock pulleys are great and save you $35. You already have a bunch of decent parts. Reuse as much as you can, and don't overthink it. Fancy parts don't usually make it last any longer or make more power.
Brian |
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Lingwendil
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: 1776 post mortem, prepare for carnage! |
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| Brian_e wrote: |
I just use these in small engines with CB cams. 31mm will just add more weight. I also reuse stock pushrods cut down with a 2239.
http://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1512.htm
I have had better luck with mahle cam bearings in the last year or so. Way less work to make them fit than the Silverlines. On engines like yours, I just use all mahle bearings. I am pretty sure that is what CB carries.
I am kind of bitter about aftermarket cam gears. I had two go bad on me. They were not CB gears, but the super generic ones everyone sells. None of them seem to fit tight enough. From now on I only use CB straight cuts or stock vw magnesium gears drilled and countersunk it use my stash of extra CB offset washers. The CB straight cuts are no where near as noisy as most people complain about. Cheap ones are rather noisy. The problem with the stock vw gears is you need a large stash to get one to fit correctly. I bought out two closed shops, and I have managed to hoard about 20 gears now, so I can fit the +/- sizes till it's perfect. Not sure what to tell you there.
Don't throw a bunch of extra parts at this thing. Reuse as much of the stock tin as possible. Stock pulleys are great and save you $35. You already have a bunch of decent parts. Reuse as much as you can, and don't overthink it. Fancy parts don't usually make it last any longer or make more power.
Brian |
I'm kinda-sorta on a budget, and my usual state of mind is only to spend money if it's necessary, and reuse anything that can be reused. No sense wasting money on stuff that isn't needed, I'd rather get what I need, and get the car back on the road with a good engine sooner than later. Thankfully the heads and cylinder/piston set were the only stuff in really bad shape, and I have a case ready to start on. The crank being counterweighted and looking great was a fantastic surprise
The plan is to populate the crank with the existing gears and spacers etc, and new bearings. I've got a nice stock pulley and a degree pulley that I can use (probably going with the stock one, just adding a couple extra timing marks to it for ease of use) and I've got almost a complete set of stock tin to use, plus the stuff on the current 1600 that I can mix-and-match as needed for fit once installation time comes. That reminds me, I need to run to my storage and dig out the case, oil pump, and pump cover, along with some miscellaneous hardware...
If those 1512 lifters will work then I'll go with them. It's been a few years since I built an engine so finding currently available bits that are proven to work well together can cause a bit of "analysis paralysis" for me 
I think I may just grab that 1419 gear, lifters, cam, rod bearings and cam bearings all at once from CB, then grab my piston/cylinder set and mains from AA. Once I get those all in hand I can mock up the case to get an idea of deck height, so that I can figure out what additional work it will take to hit a good compression ratio. My spare case has had the cylinder sealing surface skimmed to true up the surface, so I may or may not need shims to set up the deck. I have a feeling I'll be needing the heads I end up going with flycut/CC'd to hit 8.5-8.7CR, knowing my luck. Does .050~.060" deck sound about right for this sort of build?
Stock pushrods sound good, I can easily find a bunch of good ones to cut down. Any tips on how to remove the tips so they can be cut down?
_________________
73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!
Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884
Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087! |
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Brian_e
Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009
Posts: 3293
Location: Rapid City, SD
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:23 pm Post subject: Re: 1776 post mortem, prepare for carnage! |
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I trim my pushrods in the lathe with a thin grooving tool. Just cut down till you hit steel. Make the groove the right width and then use two old lifters and a hammer to drive the tip back in.
Brian |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26789
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: 1776 post mortem, prepare for carnage! |
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| It's easy. Just tap around the outside with a hammer against an anvil to relieve the press fit a little(if you do to much they will fall out...so moderation!), then heat it up with a torch, the ends pull right out. Dab of loctite for re-assembly. |
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nsracing
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2003
Posts: 9481
Location: NOVA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:15 am Post subject: Re: 1776 post mortem, prepare for carnage! |
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The cam looks good. Whatever you did to make it last like that is good to go.
The crank assembly looks good too. Heads are gone -get newer ones.
Case will need refresh/linebore. If you have not done already maybe a balance job.
get it cleaned up and do it over. Back on the road in no time. Ideally, you should have a spare engine to use while getting the other put back up. |
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Lingwendil
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:47 am Post subject: Re: 1776 post mortem, prepare for carnage! |
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| nsracing wrote: |
| The cam looks good. Whatever you did to make it last like that is good to go. |
35,000-40,000 miles of Delo 400LE 15W-40, changed every 3000-4000 miles, and full-flow filtration with a Fram HP-1, in addition to whatever the last owner did. Since I'm building up the engine with more care and thought I'll likely run a "better" oil this time around. Not going to be a "mystery motor" anymore
| Quote: |
| The crank assembly looks good too. Heads are gone -get newer ones. |
I'm really relieved the crank assembly is in such good shape for sure.
I'll strip the studs, springs, keepers, and valve locks from these heads and toss them. Definitely toast.
| Quote: |
| Case will need refresh/linebore. If you have not done already maybe a balance job. |
Case will be cleaned up, and put in storage until I can take it in for a linebore, since I've thankfully got another good case on hand.
| Quote: |
| get it cleaned up and do it over. Back on the road in no time. Ideally, you should have a spare engine to use while getting the other put back up. |
The main reason I'm finally tearing this one down is that the spare engine (1600, dished pistons, stepped heads) I'm currently running has started making a bunch of noise on the passenger side head, and since this was the bigger/better engine, I would rather rebuild this one first. I can get by for now, then the other engine will get a once-over too. Thankfully I can use the commuter train for work (like a bum ) until I get this one together. The car is parked for now.
Unfortunately, after tearing this one apart and planning to order parts, we got not one, but two flat tires on She-Who-Must-Be-Appeased's Ford Expedition, and we found a nail in a third, so we had the unexpected expense of dealing with that business, and there goes a big portion of the engine fund, setting us back a bit. I'll have to slow down and order parts in stages, but I'm not in a huge hurry to get this engine together, thankfully. We've also got a camping trip this next weekend, so I won't actually have much time to mess with it for a week or two anyway.
I ordered parts from CB, at least-
1362 End Play Shim Kit
1419 Eagle Adjustable Cam Gear
1512 VW Valve Lifters (set of 8 )
1849 Racing Camshaft Bearing Set
1921 8mm - Shake-Proof Nut Kit
2239 Eagle Racing Camshafts
Next week I'll make an order from AA for the other bearings, pistons/cylinders, and a few miscellaneous things. Once I have crank, cylinders and case mocked up I'll figure out if I need any cylinder shims, and then I can figure out what CC the heads need. for when I get them ordered. Still going back and forth on heads, but likely going either AA 500 series, or Steve Tims Super Stock, depending on if/when I hear back from them.
_________________
73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!
Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884
Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087! |
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calvinater
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2014
Posts: 3330
Location: 802 The Pointless Forrest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:56 am Post subject: Re: 1776 post mortem, prepare for carnage! |
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Also looking at Tims super stock heads cut for 90.5. Let us know what you think , there web site is a little sparse
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"Albatross"! |
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67rustavenger 
Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015
Posts: 9772
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:00 am Post subject: Re: 1776 post mortem, prepare for carnage! |
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Hey I used to ride Bart from Fremont to Berkeley. It ain't all that bad compared to sitting dead still on the 880 in the afternoon.
On your heads. Call Greg at Performance workshop. He's super busy and (not knocking him) rather slow on responding to emails. He's working on a set of heads for me in between dyno runs on engines he's building.
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I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
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Lingwendil
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:16 am Post subject: Re: 1776 post mortem, prepare for carnage! |
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| 67rustavenger wrote: |
Hey I used to ride Bart from Fremont to Berkeley. It ain't all that bad compared to sitting dead still on the 880 in the afternoon.
On your heads. Call Greg at Performance workshop. He's super busy and (not knocking him) rather slow on responding to emails. He's working on a set of heads for me in between dyno runs on engines he's building. |
I work in Mountain View lately, and live in Oakley, if I leave work at 4PM i barely get home by 7PM, after spending 90% of my time in first or second gear for 40 miles 
I'm really curious about the Super Stock heads, they do sound like a good fit for this build for sure. If I don't here back by wednesday I'll likely give them a call and see what's up.
This last week I've been doing BART to Caltrain, and I actually get home around 630-645, so it's actually not too bad, once the car is back on the road I might actually continue to do BART, at least until the engine is broken in. Mingling with the unwashed masses is a drag, but not having to sit in traffic is actually pretty nice. I just feel naked without my car 
_________________
73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!
Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884
Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087! |
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earthquake
Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2008
Posts: 3984
Location: SANDY VALLEY, NEVADA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:51 am Post subject: Re: 1776 post mortem, prepare for carnage! |
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I thought you said you were going to show us some "Carnage" this is Carnage...
Oh the humanity!
Casey the "Destructor"
_________________
74 CLASS 11 LOOK-A-LIKE
69 DUNE BUGGY
79 INTERNATIONAL SCOUT II
05 SCION XB SERIES RELEASE 2[#437]
95 Chevy C3500 dually
98 Ford E150
Link to Kelly J. Nolte 3/20/53 - 11/6/08
https://time-zonelabs.blogspot.com/p/about-kelly.html
DEATH TO CHINGERS!
[From a military recruitment poster in the novel "The Stainless Steel Rat" By Harry Harrison] |
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Towel Rail
Horizontally Opposed
Joined: April 15, 2005
Posts: 4622
Location: SE CR IA US NA PE
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:52 am Post subject: Re: 1776 post mortem, prepare for carnage! |
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^^^ Nice! What's the story on that one?
_________________
1974 Thing -- under the knife
1967 Beetle -- spring/summer/fall driver
1996 Subaru OBW (EJ22, 5-speed, AWD) -- winter car, 3-seasons "don't feel like biking today" car
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Pruneman99
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2012
Posts: 5013
Location: Oceanside
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:24 pm Post subject: Re: 1776 post mortem, prepare for carnage! |
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Stay away from the Silverline cam bearings. What garbage. I spent HOURS trying to make a new set work before I finally gave up and ordered some NOS Clemex bearings. The difference was night and day.
The Silverline mains were just fine however. |
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Lingwendil
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26789
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:47 pm Post subject: Re: 1776 post mortem, prepare for carnage! |
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| Cb sent me silverline cam bearings. They went right into the trash. |
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Lingwendil
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7219
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: 1776 post mortem, prepare for carnage! |
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Don´t worry. Sometimes Glen is a little pissed 
Over the last 3 -4 years Silverline has better tolerances than Mahle or repacked KS And DEFINITELY better than Clemex. It is correct that about 2 years ago there was a batch of Silverline Cam bearings that hit the market which had poor fit. I got a bunch of those too. Since then I have not seen any issues with them.
T |
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Lingwendil
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Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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