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bnam
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 Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:59 pm Post subject: Distributor ID help |
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Can someone ID this distributor number -- 311905205Q? Which year/engine of type 3 is it for? What are the advance specs if known?
A friend's 74 1303 (1600) is running with a non VW distributor right now. Wondering if this 311 distributor would be a better match until the correct distributor is found.
Thanks!
Byas
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Pruneman99
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:14 pm Post subject: Re: Distributor ID help |
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| I think that's is a replacement for the 310 205 905 G or F distributor found on mid to late 60's type III. It's SVA right? Probably got matched to PDSIT dual 32's. You didn't say what carb your friend is running, but most likely a PICT 34. The vacuum signal would be way to strong from that carb. |
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bnam
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:39 pm Post subject: Re: Distributor ID help |
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Yes SVDA. And with a 34pict 3.
I hadn't thought about the differences in signal strength.
Is it because on the typ3 the signal comes from just one of the carbs? Or?
Is there anyway to moderate the signal strength? Throttle it by narrowing the vacuum output pipe inner dia?
Or, can we adapt it by using another vacuum can which is better suited to handle the higher vacuum?
I imagine the centrifugal advance curves are roughly similar(?)
Byas
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1971 1302LS Convertible (RHD) owned since '74
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Pruneman99
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:50 pm Post subject: Re: Distributor ID help |
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If it's SVDA it *might* work. I was thinking it was SVA.
You can test the mechanical vacuum with a timing light. Set the static timing to TDC and rev the engine to 3k. Use a light to see how much timing you get. As long as you get at least 20 degrees, you could run it mechanical only if needed. Set total advance to 28-32 degrees BTDC at 3k RPM and let the idle timing fall where it may.
Maybe post a picture?
Search around. Everett posted a great thread with all the vacuum advance curves of different distributors. Root around to find it and look to see what the cruve should look like. |
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Pruneman99
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tasb
The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002
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Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:30 pm Post subject: Re: Distributor ID help |
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Lot's of confusion with the posts above. Appreciate the fact that full part numbers were used instead of what's my 205 Q used on.
A 311 905 205 Q is a single vacuum advance distributor. It is not an SVDA since it does not have mechanical advance weights just vacuum. These type distributors are not the best match for a 34 PICT carburetor. Neither did the factory match them together.
The 311 905 205 Q was most likely a non- USA distributor as I've only seen one or two in the past 14 years. it has timing specs that match 1966-67 VW's like the 113 905 205 K.
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bnam
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:49 am Post subject: Re: Distributor ID help |
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Thanks for the clarification. My bad on ID'in it as an SVDA.
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1971 1302LS Convertible (RHD) owned since '74
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ashman40
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:05 am Post subject: Re: Distributor ID help |
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"Holy Cow"! I thought the Beetle 205T/K/L distributors fully advanced at a low vacuum level... according to this chart in the link above the Beetle 205T/K/L models reach full advance at 60mm-Hg.
Your 205Q reaches full advance at only 30mm-Hg!!!
I'd think if you paired your 205Q with a 34Pict carb the distributor would be fully advanced at any point above idle!  Not a good match.
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tasb
The Distributor Distributor
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:03 pm Post subject: Re: Distributor ID help |
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Something not quite right about some of those tables. According to my data the VW vacuum canister with the lowest draw is 50 mm/hg.
The table shows an identical advance curve for a 131 905 205 G which is not a distributor that I have any data for, definately not a distributor that made it to NAm.
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bnam
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: Distributor ID help |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
"Holy Cow"! I thought the Beetle 205T/K/L distributors fully advanced at a low vacuum level... according to this chart in the link above the Beetle 205T/K/L models reach full advance at 60mm-Hg.
Your 205Q reaches full advance at only 30mm-Hg!!!
I'd think if you paired your 205Q with a 34Pict carb the distributor would be fully advanced at any point above idle! Not a good match. |
Is this because the 311-205Q was deisgned for use with twin carbs and is fed (?) with the vacuum from just one carb which is half the strength of a single carb vaccum?
If the vacuum can were replaced with one from a T/K/L, then it would be functionally equivalent to a T/K/L right?
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ashman40
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: Distributor ID help |
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| bnam wrote: |
| Is this because the 311-205Q was deisgned for use with twin carbs and is fed (?) with the vacuum from just one carb which is half the strength of a single carb vaccum? |
I don't know...
You are in the Beetle forum asking about a T3 dual carb distributor. Not sure you will get a definite answer...  Try asking in the T3 forum?
| bnam wrote: |
| If the vacuum can were replaced with one from a T/K/L, then it would be functionally equivalent to a T/K/L right? |
It is not as simple as that.
Each distributor has a specific vacuum canister designed to work with that model. Based on the size and shape of the vacuum canister the arm of the canister will move different amounts under different vacuum levels. The attachment point on the point contact plate has a specific mounting point for the vacuum can it was designed to work with. The different vacuum can arms have the pivot hole in a different position.
This means (for example) the canister for one distributor may only provide 5mm of movement, while another may provide 8mm or movement but both will provide 20deg of timing advance for their respective distributors. If you swap vacuum canisters you may not get the expected result. The distributor could advance too quickly; too slowly; too much or not enough.
Use the correct canister with the correct distributor.
Also, the large diameter 205T/K/L vacuum canisters are hard to find. There are no new replacements being made. You would need to find a good working 205T/K/L distributor and steal its canister... but in that case you should just rebuild and use THAT distributor instead of the one you have.
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mr. lang
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:51 am Post subject: Re: Distributor ID help |
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This is indeed a very strange chart:
I have found this exact same chart:
'69 workshop manual, 1st addendum from 5.69, page 3.3 5-5: 311 905 205 G
'69 workshop manual, 3rd addendum from 5.72, page 3.3 5-13: 131 905 205 G
In the newer manual the 311 was replaced by 131 and since 131 905 205 G does not exist, i guess 131 905 205 G is a typo and should be 311 905 205 G
| Quote: |
| Can someone ID this distributor number -- 311905205Q? Which year/engine of type 3 is it for? What are the advance specs if known? |
311 905 205 Q was used:
8.68 - 6.69 for 1600 A, 1600 A Variant, 1600 L, 1600 L Variant and 1600 TL, (all Type 3) 1.6liter dual carb engines with manual gearbox
It was also the official replacement for 311 905 205 E (Bosch 0 231 137 007), 311 905 205 F (Bosch 0 231 137 013) and 311 905 205 G (Bosch 0 231 137 017)
curve should be:
vacuum start: 1-7 mmHg
14°-20° at 20mmHg
vacuum end: 23°-28° at 34mmHg
This is from another part of the manual, but would fit the above chart, so this could be correct.
vacuum can is 1 237 121 210, so shouldn't the curve look like for a 113 905 205 K (which does use the same can) for example ?
Only reason could be that there is another return spring used.
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ashman40
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:27 pm Post subject: Re: Distributor ID help |
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| mr. lang wrote: |
vacuum can is 1 237 121 210, so shouldn't the curve look like for a 113 905 205 K (which does use the same can) for example ?
Only reason could be that there is another return spring used. |
This is what I was trying to describe...
Even if the vacuum can IS the same as another distributor, if the position where the vacuum can arm connects to the point advance plate is different the same amount of vacuum can produce more (or less) advance. Also, the plate has a stop block to limit the range of advance. Changing this can limit the total amount of advance the vacuum can produces. The vacuum can alone does not determine the advance curve. So just using another distributor's can may not get you the same results.
I'm beginning to question the above graphs...
This graph suggest the 113-905-205K (SVA) distributor only produces 14deg of vacuum advance, total. But from the below specs for the 205K it produces up to 28deg of advance. I've converted the in-Hg to mm-Hg in parenthesis for comparison.
Advance/Retard Range listed for the 205K SVA distributor from the OldVolksHome page: Vacuum (Advance Only): 17-19deg @ 1.3 In. Hg (33mm-Hg), 24-28deg @ 3.2 In. Hg (81mm-Hg)
So clearly the above chart for the 205K and others should have a range along the left of 0-30deg instead of 0-15deg. If you just change the labels the curve looks nearly correct compared to the OldVolksHome data.
I wonder if this applies to the 205Q chart as well?
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bnam
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:12 am Post subject: Re: Distributor ID help |
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I think the degrees on the chart are distributor degrees vs. crank degrees -- so double the number to get the crank degrees.
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ashman40
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:08 am Post subject: Re: Distributor ID help |
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| bnam wrote: |
| I think the degrees on the chart are distributor degrees vs. crank degrees -- so double the number to get the crank degrees. |
Ahh, good point. That makes sense.
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'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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mr. lang
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:32 am Post subject: Re: Distributor ID help |
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I've made a list about spring interchangeability of 0 231 137 ... distributors (just out of curiosity) so see, where you can salvage a spring from.
Some rows are empty, because I did not find the part in any of my parts manuals.
| Code: |
VW Bosch Spring
111 905 205 N 0 231 137 005/006 111 905 237 B
311 905 205 E 0 231 137 007/008 311 905 237 + 311 905 238
113 905 205 K 0 231 137 009/010 111 905 237 C
131 905 205 0 231 137 011/012 111 905 237 C
311 905 205 F 0 231 137 013/014 311 905 238 + 311 905 238
315 905 205 0 231 137 015/016 111 905 237 C
311 905 205 G 0 231 137 017/018 311 905 238 + 311 905 238
111 905 205 Q 0 231 137 019/020
113 905 205 M 0 231 137 021/022 113 905 237 A
311 905 205 J 0 231 137 023/024
111 905 205 S 0 231 137 025/026
211 905 205 N 0 231 137 027/028
111 905 205 T 0 231 137 029/030 111 905 237 C
315 905 205 B 0 231 137 031/032 111 905 237 C
311 905 205 Q 0 231 137 033/034 311 905 238
113 905 205 T 0 231 137 035/036 111 905 237 A
211 905 205 P 0 231 137 037/038
111 905 205 AA 0 231 137 039/040 |
There are more variations than I expected.
Some have two springs ? When two springs are listed, the first is the upper, the second the lower spring.
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tasb
The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:55 am Post subject: Re: Distributor ID help |
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THAT is an interesting table there... to ad to the discumbobulations not all of those type III distributors listed as dual spring are actually dual spring. The housing needs to have the second stud to support the second lower spring and many 311 E,F, G distributors do not have the stud, just the standard ozone air vent. The vent can be easily removed with the correct sized punch but finding the stud to replace it is not going to be an easy task. - and we digress.
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Last edited by tasb on Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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tasb
The Distributor Distributor
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:02 am Post subject: Re: Distributor ID help |
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The letter designation after the spring part number is a variant change and is a very slight difference sometimes of less that a half turn added/subtracted to a spring. The stud that the spring attaches to is also adjustable. I've been looking for the correct tool to move that stud for years and not found it going on the assumption that it can be rotated to change the advance characteristics. The reality is that it could be a factory setting thing not meant to be altered after the distributor leaves the factory.
The eccentric stud can be seen here at 7 o'clock.
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tasb
The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 6424
Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:15 am Post subject: Re: Distributor ID help |
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| mr. lang wrote: |
I've made a list about spring interchangeability of 0 231 137 ... distributors (just out of curiosity) so see, where you can salvage a spring from.
Some rows are empty, because I did not find the part in any of my parts manuals.
| Code: |
VW Bosch Spring
111 905 205 N 0 231 137 005/006 111 905 237 B
311 905 205 E 0 231 137 007/008 311 905 237 + 311 905 238
113 905 205 K 0 231 137 009/010 111 905 237 C
131 905 205 0 231 137 011/012 111 905 237 C
311 905 205 F 0 231 137 013/014 311 905 238 + 311 905 238
315 905 205 0 231 137 015/016 111 905 237 C
311 905 205 G 0 231 137 017/018 311 905 238 + 311 905 238
111 905 205 Q 0 231 137 019/020
113 905 205 M 0 231 137 021/022 113 905 237 A
311 905 205 J 0 231 137 023/024
111 905 205 S 0 231 137 025/026
211 905 205 N 0 231 137 027/028
111 905 205 T 0 231 137 029/030 111 905 237 C
315 905 205 B 0 231 137 031/032 111 905 237 C
311 905 205 Q 0 231 137 033/034 311 905 238
113 905 205 T 0 231 137 035/036 111 905 237 A
211 905 205 P 0 231 137 037/038
111 905 205 AA 0 231 137 039/040 |
There are more variations than I expected.
Some have two springs ? When two springs are listed, the first is the upper, the second the lower spring. |
All of the entries that are blank actually do exist and I have seen or have examples but have no easy way of comparing them to the data in this table.
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tasb
The Distributor Distributor
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:01 am Post subject: Re: Distributor ID help |
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Here is a dual spring 311 905 205 D with a damaged housing ( there is not 311 905 205 D in the data table above.)
and a 311 905 205 F dual spring with both cap clips broken off:
finally a dual spring 311 905205 G waiting for restoration:
The 311 905 205 Q that started this thread would be similar to these but without the second (lower) spring post.I was mistaken above, about the vent cap the lower spring stud is actually not a vent but a fitting. Only five out of twelve 311 E,F,G SVA distributors in stock are dual spring.
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