Looking for a part from a junked out rusted up Squareback

[Multi69s]

Called CB today and ran into a snag. Since these are blow through housings, the standard size weber, oval filter (7" x 4.5" Approx.) will not fit inside, so you would have to go to an external filter, which would defeat what I want to do. Placed a call to K&N to see what size filters they had. Was on hold forever, then got disconnected. Probably try again tomorrow. Ideally, a filter that is 2.5" tall, by 6.25 long, and 3.75 wide would be perfect. However, I fear that I will probably have to make my own housings, so, I have so many other projects lined up right now, it will probably be a winter project
_________________
69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=

[Multi69s]

Having never studied fluid dynamics, I am curious. If one were to have a outer shell similar to this:

With a filter inside, how much clearance should there be all the way around the filter for proper air flow. Do you think 1/2" would be enough, or should it be more?
_________________
69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=

[Multi69s]

I may have found the solution for air filter elements: Dirt Bikes. They come in all shapes and sizes.

In fact this red one, is the model for my wife's dirt bike.

I think it "needs" to be cleaned. Another good aspect is that the whole part is a filter, and they have an internal cage like this one, to attach and hold the air cleaners shape.

Some of the larger modern dirt bikes are pulling 60 HP and up through one element, so since I will be running one on each bank, I don't think I will have a problem with restriction. We have a motor cycle only salvage yard here in town, I know where I am heading tomorrow.
_________________
69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=

[ataraxia]

I would think that would work - the RamFlo filters are of similar construction.

Here's a site with knock off parts (much less expensive) to give you an idea of what they're made of and prices for parts:

https://www.piercemanifolds.com/product_p/rf457.htm

[Multi69s]

Well it looks like I have found something that will work, my old filters are on the left.

They are off of a Honda Shadow 750, and they are a little shorter and narrower, but just a little bit taller. I have to stretch the sealing base just a little to get them over the bell of the velocity stacks, but after that they fit good. The 750 puts at around 50 hp, and just uses one element, so using one per bank should not give me any intake restriction. Unfortunately, this filter won't work on the IDF, they are just to short. Now I just have figure out whether I want to make the plenum chambers, or buy. Got to keep the wife happy though.
_________________
69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=

[W1K1]

I don't know if the CB hats have enough air space around them for good air flow on a N/A engine, boost doesn't care.

My first intake project was a similar system just made from some steel sheet I had sheared to the height I wanted, and bent around a wood buck with the 2.5" oval tubing attached. I could watch the O2 go rich around 4K as I was running out of airflow. It could have been the paper filter, who knows, it gave me an excuse to build version 2

If I were to try it as 2 individual units now I think I would attach the tubing on the outside edge and run it towards the back. so there is more air space around the top of the carb. Could you run a cone filter in line to the carb?

i added much more space around the carb tops and through the piping on the fiberglass version 2 to prevent flow restrictions

_________________
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jim_martin_engine_build.php

1973 super
1965 squareback 1500E
1971 bay window westy- subi swap

[ataraxia]

I reached out to Markus in Germany - the guy who makes the intake systems - and he only replied with 'Thanks for the inquiry - I don't ship to the US'.

I'll find a work around or make my own after a foam mock up - but that's looking like a Winter project for me.

[Erik G]

Id be curious to see real would numbers. HP & TQ, 0-60, and head/oil temps

I have seen no noticeable change on either a 64 or 65 1500S when using the small empi type filters vs the stock oil bath connected to the body air intake

I do realize that sometimes we just need to get out in the garage and tinker...
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Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!

[ataraxia]

[W1K1]

[ataraxia]

[Erik G]

just another data point, unknown Gex (yes ) motor with baby dells. definitely bigger than a 1600 but it ran so good and didn't leak, I didn't want to tear it apart. anyways, was my daily and only driver for quite a while including Sacramento 110+ degree summers, never a problem with the car and didn't notice it running any differently hot or not... thats not to say it didn't but I drove it everywhere and drove it very hard at that.

the clean air does count for something for sure. Bet your oil change is cleaner too
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Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!

[Multi69s]

It has been known for many, many years that having a cool air intake to an engine is beneficial across the board. Cool air is denser, and has a much higher oxygen content. If you look at any reasonably newer car, they don't draw their intake air from inside the engine compartment, it is plumbed from somewhere at the front of the car.

The problem that those of us face with the Squareback, and dual carbs is space. VW supplied the engine with one cool air intake, and it was designed to support an engine size of 1600cc. However, the problem that those of with larger engines face is air volume. That one connection is not large enough to feed enough air to our engines. More CCs and higher RPMs, means that more air is needed. However, that one intake connection VW installed was actually pretty ingenious. I just got mine in the mail, and was very surprised by its design.

The intake is positioned in between the fender vents and the cooling fan. The intake itself has a scoop that is in the middle of this air stream. So it almost acts as a ram intake to the engine. This tells us that VW put a lot of stock into getting cool air to the engine.

I don't know what the temps are in the engine compartment: 200, 300, 400 degrees? All I know is that when I lift the engine lid, its like opening an oven. So pulling your intake air from this condition is not a good situation, and will even change your jetting requirements depending on engine temps. That's one of the reasons that a hot engine is harder to start. The air temp has gone up, which decreases oxygen content, which makes your jetting too rich. That is one battle that I have fought, and one of the reasons why I want to up grade my intake cooling.

Now for the technical stuff - Read at your own risk

From Banks

The general rule of thumb is that for every 10º of temperature drop, the density (and oxygen content) increases 1 percent. It’s actually more like 1.8 percent. Similarly, power increases by an equal amount. So, in this example, if you can intake air that hasn’t been heated, you can gain as much as 5 to 9 percent more power. Happily, the best places to collect cool air are the same places that work for ram air, so you can get the density gains from both pressure and temperature using the same intake ducting.

To get back to our earlier question of what happens when we have cooler, or higher density, air at all throttle positions, it means that the engine is capable of producing given amounts of power at lesser throttle openings. This generally equates to better fuel economy. It also means the engine has greater power potential for accelerating or climbing grades. Cooler intake air also suppresses detonation since the working fluid doesn’t reach as high a temperature on the compression stroke – again, a plus for accelerating or climbing grades.

From K&N

The best way to explain a cold air intake system is to think of your car's engine like a pair of lungs. In order to make power, the cylinders have to inhale air to create the explosion that produces wheel-turning horsepower and torque. Since cold air contains more oxygen molecules than warm air, injecting a higher volume of oxygen-rich air into the cylinders allows the engine to burn fuel more completely during the combustion cycle. This "combustion efficiency" results in an increase of horsepower and torque, using roughly the same amount of fuel.

Put simply, if you add oxygen to a fire, you get a stronger fire. Cold air intake systems are designed to deliver more oxygen-rich cold air into the engine than a stock air intake tract. This results in a stronger 'explosion', which contains more force to push the piston down and turn the crankshaft. That extra energy/power is then transferred to the transmission and out to the wheels.

From How Stuff Works

Does a cold air intake really make a difference?

Cold air and more air sound good in theory, but no one gives a hill of beans about theory when you're trying to pass someone on the highway.
The good news is that although claims of actual horsepower and even increased fuel efficiency may vary, cold air intakes will in fact help increase your car's performance.

By itself, you'll probably notice an increase in power when the throttle is fully open. Some manufacturers claim as much as a 5- to 20-horsepower increase for their system. But if you team up the cold air intake with other engine modifications, like a new exhaust, you'll create a much more efficient system. So think of it as just one part of many to increase your engine's performance.

Install that cold air intake and hear the magnificent sound of free-flowing cool air to your engine and enjoy a few extra horsepower as well. It may be just what your engine needs
_________________
69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=

[Erik G]

I understand all of that, I'm not an idiot. I question the numbers and how much difference it actually makes. It probably won't happen because people don't like to take the time to do it, but I can still say I'm curious to see actual data.
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[ataraxia]

I think the original intake pipe 'scoop' faces the bellows, not the fenders.

[ajb164]

[ataraxia]

[Multi69s]

[Brent]

It goes the other way. I think the bigger benefit of pulling external air is the reduction of noise.
_________________
69 Fastback Build
Berg5 Build

[Multi69s]

Well, a picture is worth a thousand words (no ram effect). I also believe that it will quite things down in the rear. My road bug has a 2110, with a 120 cam and dual 44 IDFs. When the cam comes in you don't hear the exhaust, just pure intake noise, and my Squareback is not far behind. However, I don't believe that VW did it purely for sound reasons. Whether it was carbureted, or FI, the air cleaner / intake track has always been a sealed system. However, those of us that are running modified air intakes, have air cleaners that are opened 360 degrees around each carb. So the intake noise increase exponentially.

Now lets take a look at the lowly bug. I have three right now, going down the line I previously had a 64, 66, 69, and a 73 super beetle. They were all stock when I purchased them, and in stock configuration, you did not hear any intake noise, yet they didn't have any fresh air connections like the Squarebacks. In my minds eye, I see three reasons for this:

1) The oil bath air cleaner is not only excellent at keeping dirt out, but it does a great job of keeping noise in.

2) The carb or FI is about a foot away from the engine, instead of inches, so the intake is less likely to pull as much engine temperature air.

3) Because of the air cleaner height, it is more likely to pull in fresh air from the louvers under the rear window, or the deck lid.

Also on the Type 3 intake tubes on the carbureted models, they came with a cold weather preheat device.

If you forget everything else, that one device alone tells me that VW was using that connection as a cold air pickup.

Am I trying to convince the world that I am right? Not really, what I am trying to do is make the conditions for MY engine the best that they can be. There will not be a dyno run, but I pay meticulous attention to my gauges, (oil pressure, temp, and CHT). Yes I know that they are not accurate, but they are a reference, so I will be using them, the seat of my pants, and hot start ability to see if it was worth the work.
_________________
69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=