90 Westy - square lights - LED's

[RBEmerson]

At the risk of starting yet another firestorm on the topic, I very much want to yank my present HID's (moderately long story omitted) and put in LED's. At moment my Westy is in the shop, making checking the clearance behind the buckets problematic.

First question, is there enough clearance behind the bucket for heat sinks? AFAIK, I need dual beam 9004/HB1 equivalents and H3 equivalents. All of the "100 watt" H3's have "not for headlights!" on the various ads. Is this just CYA because they're single "filament" lamps? 9004/HB1's seem to be easy enough to find. But there's that pesky clearance issue.

FWIW I have the "high power" relay kit in place. NTL high wattage halogens proved to be, IMNSHO, only a step up from acetylene carriage lamps from days gone by. Yes, I obsessively used the right gauge wire, obsessively installed.

ADDED: round headlights aren't an option, period. Don't even ask. Not gonna happen as long as I own this vehicle. End of story. #30#
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Lord, give me coffee to change the things I can change, and wine to accept the things I can't change.

[Paulbeard]

Any reason not to go with e-code/H4s?
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Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs

[dougass]

I have LED bulbs in my stock square headlights. They are slightly improved, but not great. From what I have researched and experienced, the sock headlights are destine for poor performance, it comes down to the reflectors being inadequate. I don't have a link to the bulbs I purchased, they were ~$50 on amazon and had good reviews - had 2 led's one was on under LOW and both on under HI beams. I played with different insertion angles to see what projected best, none of which blew my mind.

NO ROUND headlights for me either! If I had a few $$$ I would get the Rigid Industries / Truck-lite 5x7 replacements. There are a number of LED headlights for old Cherokees that I believe will do the trick, just not sure how to mount them.
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'91 GL - 2.1 automatic named Klaus for weekend adventures.

#klausvan & @thisisklausvan

[RBEmerson]

When I swapped in the HID's I scrubbed out the lens and reflector assembly. A mix of crushed ice and alcohol did a good job of dissolving the film on the inside of the lens and off the reflector, and the ice helps loosen bigger bits of stuff. Some time with a hair drier gets rid of moisture left behind. Waving a bright LED flashlight around, and looking inside with dental mirror showed positive results. In terms of turning the lights into "burn the paint off the car in front" bright... maybe(!) not, but cleaner lenses and reflectors can't hurt.

What started the hunt for replacing the HID's: one of the lamps started to flicker, on startup, while standing still in front of the garage door. I suspect something on the HV side (including the lamp) is getting ready to let go. >:(

In all fairness, the HID's have been in place for a few years and, being the low beams, have been on for a ton of hours. This strikes me as the best time to shift to LED's.

We spend a fair amount of time in Germany. I keep hoping to find a set of the Euro-land lights to bring home. I keep hoping I've bought a winning lottery number, too. I'm giving better odds on winning the lottery.
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Lord, give me coffee to change the things I can change, and wine to accept the things I can't change.

[djkeev]

Some of us have retro fitted 6052 size E codes in quite successfully and the results are quite honestly VERY good.
There is a "how to" in the FAQ's.

Bus Depot is about to sell a "plug and play" square upgrade.

There is a lot more to good light than just the bulbs. The lenses and reflectors play a huge role!
Consider that light houses whose light could be seen for miles were lit with but a whale oil lamp, it was all lenses that produced such a powerful light.

Dave
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Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[RBEmerson]

Um... not a lot of lighthouse Fresnel lenses on the road, though. ;) (I know, headlight lenses are very close relatives)

I'm on a super-tight schedule and I don't see, at this point, LED's happening before we hit the road. I'm thinking more about pulling the hi/low HID's and putting the halogens back in. I'm not loving the idea, but having an HID go sour while we're camping has no appeal.

But LED's are still very much on the table. They'll have to wait until we get back. Or... hmmm... there is Amazon and we are staying a few days with friends in FL...

@dougass - which LED's did you buy and how much room, between the bucket and body panels, do you have for the cooling fins/fan?

- - - -
E codes and Bus Depot. Very short version: the in-house tent they sold me was under-sized. They got very PO'ed at me when I called them on it. I'm PO'ed about that. (German version almost fell into place and stretches almost drum-tight when up) Despite admittedly "cutting off my nose to spite my face", Hades will have a team in the Winter Olympics before I go through more BS with BD.
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Lord, give me coffee to change the things I can change, and wine to accept the things I can't change.

[kourt]

I am wondering--why do you hold such a strong position against 7" round headlights?

I have a 91 Westy that originally had rectangles. I held that same strong position regarding my rectangular headlights until I overcame my resistance to change and realized that there are well developed, off-the-shelf solutions for 7" round LED headlights (JW Speaker), modern buckets with metal adjusters (GW), and a ton of old 80-85 single-round grilles (or new from various suppliers).

Vanagon rectangular headlights are a dead-end... no other cars used them and the supply of good DOTs or E-codes is dwindling. I spent years maintaining and replacing rectangular E-codes in an attempt to keep the van looking like a stock 1991 van while also enjoying high performance lighting; one can only tolerate so many cracked E-code lenses before it becomes apparent that there are ever dwindling stocks of Vanagon rectangular E-codes. A typical E-code headlight will sell for $150--from Poland. What a hassle.

Now my 7" round headlights function better than most new cars I drive--they are remarkable in how well they illuminate. Low current draw, no real heat generation, no more busted bulbs, polycarbonate lenses take abuse from rocks, drop-in fitting, no need for heat sinks or fans... the list goes on.

kourt

[vanagonjon]

Take a look at the Daniel Stern lighting website for info on LED and HID conversions. Bottom line is that they are lighting downgrades due to the shape and configuration of the actual light source elements. I have taken apart my stock lights on my 2.1. Cleaned the interiors, new seal with a good urethane, and put in relays and slightly higher good German bulbs. I am 60 and my eyes are not what they were, but I can see fine considering that the Vanagon doesn't go that fast anyway. If I was driving a Porsche 917 down the Mulsane straight at night in the rain that would be a different thing.

[dhaines]

you can install the trucklite 27450C LED rectangular headlights. Takes some minor work to modify the headlight buckets and a bit of grill trimming but well worth the effort.

see this thread.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=578291&highlight=

[kourt]

^^^This is why rectangular headlights on Vanagons are a dead end.

The above example is a pretty good, functional change to the lighting. However, it destroys the aesthetics of the van. Anyone with a critical eye, or an eye for detail, would see this as a hack. The corner angles are different, losing symmetry between the high beam and the low beam and the bezel they occupy. The lenses are also different, further exacerbating the difference in aesthetics. No offense to dhaines--I almost made this same change to my van, because it's well documented and straightforward.

Rectangular VW Vanagon US DOT lenses are junk--the glass projects poor beam patterns and scatters light.

Rectangular VW Vanagon E-codes have good lenses but are increasingly rare and expensive, and are designed only for incandescent bulbs.

It's a well established fact that drop-in LED bulbs cannot be properly used in headlights designed for incandescents--the reflectors and glass were not patterned around modern LED emitters. Yes, you can do it, but it will produce poor results for you and for oncoming drivers. This means you must abandon the Vanagon rectangles in order to consider LED options.

This is why I believe all paths lead to 7" round replacement LED projectors. In the 7" round you have a lens shape that conforms to the original designer's intent with the Vanagon (although not the 86-91 design intent, it's still in the scope of acceptable Vanagon designs). 7" rounds are universal--used today on millions of jeeps, UPS trucks, motorcycles, and other vehicles. It is the perfect legacy light design. And folks are making excellent 7" round lights, with polycarbonate lenses, with LED emitters. If you have a South Africa grille (poor quality plastic, single fastener) or a 80-85 grille (good plastic, three fasteners) you've got all you need for great headlights--and headlights that don't dazzle oncoming cars. Everyone wins.

Okay, I'm off my soapbox now.

kourt

[dhaines]

I agree with kourt and it bothered me for quite some time after I did this project.

This does disrupt the aesthetics of the square grill and, at a glance, the clear lenses make the grill look like there are no outer headlights.

I did move the adjusters (cut and welded to align with the grill holes) so that I didn't have to drill new adjuster holes into the grill. If I were to do this again, I would have recessed the headlights a bit more so that I wouldn't have had to trim the plastic grill at the corners.

The main reason I didn't do the conversion to the round headlights: I like the square grill, and I didn't feel like spending more money for a new round headlight grill, emblem, and headlight buckets.

No one should be able to use HID or LED bulbs in headlight housings not meant for those types of lights.
I regularly flash people with blinding HID headlights, however I do not get flashed. True LED headlights have very crisp cutoffs and I spent a long time working on my adjustment to ensure others were not being blinded.

I went with the trucklite products because they were DOT compliant. (yes, I know that trucklite sells a 7" round version of what I have)

[IdahoDoug]

I put H4s on my Audi and the change was incredible. The starting point was likely the same VW engineers - low quality rectangular lamp. Yesterday, I took my Valentines for ice cream in the dark with the Audi with Osram 100/90 bulbs I've been waiting for, and the nicely controlled beams meant not a single high beam wink. So I have incredible low beams, and 100w high beams that are astounding. I highly recommend you trying your original lamps with a quality bulb and the wiring/relay upgrade available here on Samba (I think you already did this?). Incandescents still rock and don't have the light blowback from fog, dust, snow and freeway signs that LED and HID do.

Give it a shot and see how far it takes your needs.
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1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

[LemonCove]

Hella Ecodes

I repectfully disagree with Kourt, I think the Hellas maintain the original aesthetic, and the performance is excellent.
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'88 Bostig Westy

[kourt]

[LemonCove]

Not the European spec Vanagon headlights . . . . get these Hella ECodes, readily available new in the US . . .

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hla-003427811

$90/pair new with bulbs

Dave alluded to the thread that covers using these Hellas. Read thru the thread . . . PaulBeard and others have simplified the installation and improved the fit of the grille.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=583876&highlight=hella
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'88 Bostig Westy

[Team WorldTour]

As someone living in the 'Domestic Market', I had to get used to the fact that the square headlights I knew and loved, were limited to the North American Market.
No body else has those. My current van, a '90 model, has round headlights.
Original.
And honestly, I find I like them better.
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1990 Feldjäger Syncro AAZ
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[16CVs]

I agree with Doug that Standard Big headlight bulbs and relays are the way to go. The light is not some funky color and the headlights are working as designed.
I run those in my Beloved Tristar with Factory E code square lights. 55/90 with relays. One night at the car wash giving my engine a little scrub before some service I had some extra time on the meter and was getting rid of the bugs on the front of my truck and quenched both headlights with cold water and crack both of them in a matter of seconds. I heard the crack on the first one as I was spraying the second one it cracked.
Not sure of the exact words I used, but they should probably not be repeated here. Don't do what I did.

Stacy
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1987 Syncro Westfalia Triple knob (bastard)
1989 Syncro Tristar Triple knob "Swedish"
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Samba member # 14980
Call anytime number 650 722 4914 .
Keep Your van running and upkept tastefully for the love of the hobby.
Don't let your van end up in an "abortions" thread.

[OddN]

If your definitition of square lights is a little flexible you could use those Trucklite leds in a Projekt Zwo grille:

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1991 VW Multivan syncro 1,9 TD

[djkeev]

These are the Hella's I installed......... nothing but praise for the night vision I attained with them.

Hella 60/65 watt bulbs.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/your-account/order-histo...=year-2016

No grill modifacations made.

Why did I stay with the square lights instead of "upgrading" to the 7" round?

Well....... I've the newer body style.
I don't really want to step backwards in time to make my Van look like a 1983 unit.

There was a time in VW history that it was all the rage to modernize, look like the newest offering at the dealership.

In the early 1950's Beetles had a split rear window, when they introduced the single piece oval glass many grabbed their hack saws and cut out that dated vertical member and installed modern oval glass.

Beetles had tiny tail lights in the 50's and early 60's .... early in the 60's when bigger ones appeared on the show room floor, off came the tiny lights and on went the big modern ones, same with the lights on the fenders too as they grew in size year by year.

It is an asthetic choice, maintain the time period the unit represents.

I grew up with round sealed beams, they say "old" to me. (Not that a 6052/6054 is modern by any stretch of the imagination! )



Dave
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Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[danfromsyr]

Dave, yer scooby-do van is still OLD with square lights
ask the kids/grandkids
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