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ajl1971
Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2010
Posts: 89
Location: New York
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 Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:08 pm Post subject: Upper Torsion arm missing a bolt |
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Hi Guys, I was wondering if anyone here can help me figure out a problem Im having with my Front End on my 66 Squareback.
For a while now I have experiencing a clanking noise (like if something is loose) when I hit a bump, small pot hole or an uneven surface. Yesterday replacing the front brake lines I noticed that Im missing a bolt, in the manual its called grub bolt, this is on the driver side, the passenger side has it. I guess this is part of my problem because with the front lifted I can rock the upper torsion arm left and right. How safe is to drive the car like this, Where I can get this bolt and how tight this should be.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34003
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:37 pm Post subject: Re: Upper Torsion arm missing a bolt |
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I would not drive it until this is fixed. You can get really loose if it pulls out further. At anything but a crawl it can be very difficult to control.
Two steps to the fix. First, find the loose/missing hardware. The grub screw is usually has an inner hex (like adjusting your wheel bearings), and if it was missing, that nut wouldn't still there. Maybe it sheared in two? Maybe the torsion bar dimple got ruined somehow? Are you sure it isn't just really loose? Unscrew the nut, and see what's still there.
Second, figure out hot it came loose... on the driver side there is a dimple in the end of the torsion bar. It should be tight and the end of the bar should be about flush, not sunk like yours appears to be.
On the passenger side there is a flat, and the endplay is adjusted on that side, AFTER the driver side is snugged up. You might even have to loosen the passenger side to get the grub screw and dimple reentered and tighten down.
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ajl1971
Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2010
Posts: 89
Location: New York
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:14 pm Post subject: Re: Upper Torsion arm missing a bolt |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
I would not drive it until this is fixed. You can get really loose if it pulls out further. At anything but a crawl it can be very difficult to control.
Two steps to the fix. First, find the loose/missing hardware. The grub screw is usually has an inner hex (like adjusting your wheel bearings), and if it was missing, that nut wouldn't still there. Maybe it sheared in two? Maybe the torsion bar dimple got ruined somehow? Are you sure it isn't just really loose? Unscrew the nut, and see what's still there.
Second, figure out hot it came loose... on the driver side there is a dimple in the end of the torsion bar. It should be tight and the end of the bar should be about flush, not sunk like yours appears to be.
On the passenger side there is a flat, and the endplay is adjusted on that side, AFTER the driver side is snugged up. You might even have to loosen the passenger side to get the grub screw and dimple reentered and tighten down.
I wish I had a picture but I will take it tomorrow. The passenger side, the upper torsion bar has the bolt, the driver side does not. I feel a play on the driver side not on the passenger side.
I borrowed this picture from the samba (the one with the red shock), you can see the bolt in there, driver side on mine does not have it but I will follow your suggestion, I will remove the nut and see, from what I remember I dont see anything that broke off but to make sure let me remove the nut tomorrow and see.
Thanks
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ajl1971
Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2010
Posts: 89
Location: New York
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:46 pm Post subject: Re: Upper Torsion arm missing a bolt |
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| ajl1971 wrote: |
| KTPhil wrote: |
I would not drive it until this is fixed. You can get really loose if it pulls out further. At anything but a crawl it can be very difficult to control.
Two steps to the fix. First, find the loose/missing hardware. The grub screw is usually has an inner hex (like adjusting your wheel bearings), and if it was missing, that nut wouldn't still there. Maybe it sheared in two? Maybe the torsion bar dimple got ruined somehow? Are you sure it isn't just really loose? Unscrew the nut, and see what's still there.
Second, figure out hot it came loose... on the driver side there is a dimple in the end of the torsion bar. It should be tight and the end of the bar should be about flush, not sunk like yours appears to be.
On the passenger side there is a flat, and the endplay is adjusted on that side, AFTER the driver side is snugged up. You might even have to loosen the passenger side to get the grub screw and dimple reentered and tighten down.
I wish I had a picture but I will take it tomorrow. The passenger side, the upper torsion bar has the bolt, the driver side does not. I feel a play on the driver side not on the passenger side.
I borrowed this picture from the samba (the one with the red shock), you can see the bolt in there, driver side on mine does not have it but I will follow your suggestion, I will remove the nut and see, from what I remember I dont see anything that broke off but to make sure let me remove the nut tomorrow and see.
Thanks
I just noticed that the picture I sent last has a red arrow pointing to a nut, that is not what I used the picture for.
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EverettB
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Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69809
Location: Phoenix Metro
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4504
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:02 pm Post subject: Re: Upper Torsion arm missing a bolt |
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I'd pull the upper left torsion arm and check the rod itself - I've not seen a grub screw go in that far. The left side has to be tightened before the right side because of the design.
Here's another view of the front beam and parts:
Fortunately, they're very common parts and inexpensive.
111 411 151
Grub screw for torsion bar and stabilizer mounting
111 411 155
Lock nut - Grub screw |
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ajl1971
Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2010
Posts: 89
Location: New York
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:36 pm Post subject: Re: Upper Torsion arm missing a bolt |
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| ataraxia wrote: |
I'd pull the upper left torsion arm and check the rod itself - I've not seen a grub screw go in that far. The left side has to be tightened before the right side because of the design.
Here's another view of the front beam and parts:
Fortunately, they're very common parts and inexpensive.
111 411 151
Grub screw for torsion bar and stabilizer mounting
111 411 155
Lock nut - Grub screw |
| Quote: |
Thats a great exploded view. I understand the set screw and the lock nut but why is it that the passenger side has a bolt as the one in the pucture with the red shock. |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22711
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:25 pm Post subject: Re: Upper Torsion arm missing a bolt |
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The right side is set up that way for the periodic maintenance adjustment
as shown here:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/looklisten_18/page15.jpg
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ajl1971
Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2010
Posts: 89
Location: New York
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:11 am Post subject: Re: Upper Torsion arm missing a bolt |
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Thanks for the clarification, I guess I just need to adjusted, the other thing is why on the driver side as you can see on the picture with the thick red arrow, where the control arm goes in it looks like the center piece is not flush, its sunk in like Everette mentioned it. |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34003
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:42 am Post subject: Re: Upper Torsion arm missing a bolt |
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| ajl1971 wrote: |
Thanks for the clarification, I guess I just need to adjusted, the other thing is why on the driver side as you can see on the picture with the thick red arrow, where the control arm goes in it looks like the center piece is not flush, its sunk in like Everette mentioned it. |
These two things are related in a safety-critical way!
As I posted, FIRST loosen the passenger adjustment, THEN get the driver side properly held down (grub screw tight and centered in torsion bar divot, with the end of the bar flush), and only THEN adjust the passenger side. |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22711
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:26 am Post subject: Re: Upper Torsion arm missing a bolt |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
| ajl1971 wrote: |
Thanks for the clarification, I guess I just need to adjusted, the other thing is why on the driver side as you can see on the picture with the thick red arrow, where the control arm goes in it looks like the center piece is not flush, its sunk in like Everette mentioned it. |
These two things are related in a safety-critical way!
As I posted, FIRST loosen the passenger adjustment, THEN get the driver side properly held down (grub screw tight and centered in torsion bar divot, with the end of the bar flush), and only THEN adjust the passenger side. |
Yes, this!
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Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22413
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:32 am Post subject: Re: Upper Torsion arm missing a bolt |
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| ajl1971 wrote: |
Thanks for the clarification, I guess I just need to adjusted, the other thing is why on the driver side as you can see on the picture with the thick red arrow, where the control arm goes in it looks like the center piece is not flush, its sunk in like Everette mentioned it. |
Personally, I'd remove both upper trailing arms from the spindles, and then remove the right upper trailing arm. Once I did that, I'd remove the left trailing arm AND torsion bar from the beam. Next I'd separate the left trailing arm from the torsion bar. Then I'd flip the torsion bar over and drill a new divot into the bar in the same location as the original divot was.
I'd then replace the grub screw (and use loctite when tightening that screw) on the left side and reassemble the torsion bar/trailing arm and re-install it into the beam. Then put it all back together and adjust the torsion bar on the right side with the adjusting screw, as per Bentley (front end section).
Doing all of this will let you go back to driving the car safely, and is basically a permanent repair. I would however keep an eye on the left side end of the torsion bar. I say that, because IF you're still pulling the bar thru the trailing arm, you might want to look for some new (good used) parts.
I hope this helps.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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ajl1971
Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2010
Posts: 89
Location: New York
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: Upper Torsion arm missing a bolt |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
| ajl1971 wrote: |
Thanks for the clarification, I guess I just need to adjusted, the other thing is why on the driver side as you can see on the picture with the thick red arrow, where the control arm goes in it looks like the center piece is not flush, its sunk in like Everette mentioned it. |
Personally, I'd remove both upper trailing arms from the spindles, and then remove the right upper trailing arm. Once I did that, I'd remove the left trailing arm AND torsion bar from the beam. Next I'd separate the left trailing arm from the torsion bar. Then I'd flip the torsion bar over and drill a new divot into the bar in the same location as the original divot was.
I'd then replace the grub screw (and use loctite when tightening that screw) on the left side and reassemble the torsion bar/trailing arm and re-install it into the beam. Then put it all back together and adjust the torsion bar on the right side with the adjusting screw, as per Bentley (front end section).
Doing all of this will let you go back to driving the car safely, and is basically a permanent repair. I would however keep an eye on the left side end of the torsion bar. I say that, because IF you're still pulling the bar thru the trailing arm, you might want to look for some new (good used) parts.
I hope this helps. |
Good point, its better to be safe than sorry. How long do you think this will take ? two hours ? Also would I need to have anything extra part just in case ? |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22413
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:45 am Post subject: Re: Upper Torsion arm missing a bolt |
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| ajl1971 wrote: |
| Bobnotch wrote: |
| ajl1971 wrote: |
Thanks for the clarification, I guess I just need to adjusted, the other thing is why on the driver side as you can see on the picture with the thick red arrow, where the control arm goes in it looks like the center piece is not flush, its sunk in like Everette mentioned it. |
Personally, I'd remove both upper trailing arms from the spindles, and then remove the right upper trailing arm. Once I did that, I'd remove the left trailing arm AND torsion bar from the beam. Next I'd separate the left trailing arm from the torsion bar. Then I'd flip the torsion bar over and drill a new divot into the bar in the same location as the original divot was.
I'd then replace the grub screw (and use loctite when tightening that screw) on the left side and reassemble the torsion bar/trailing arm and re-install it into the beam. Then put it all back together and adjust the torsion bar on the right side with the adjusting screw, as per Bentley (front end section).
Doing all of this will let you go back to driving the car safely, and is basically a permanent repair. I would however keep an eye on the left side end of the torsion bar. I say that, because IF you're still pulling the bar thru the trailing arm, you might want to look for some new (good used) parts.
I hope this helps. |
Good point, its better to be safe than sorry. How long do you think this will take ? two hours ? Also would I need to have anything extra part just in case ? |
I don't know about 2 hours. I only say that as drilling the dimple could almost take that long.  And you'll need to measure first before drilling.
Depending on how long it's been since the beam has been apart, it could take 2 hours just to do that. I don't know what your tool selection is like either, but you're going to need a 30mm socket to remove the upper trailing arm, and separate it from the upper ball joint.
For parts, you'd probably need a new grub screw, to lock the arm to the torsion bar.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4504
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:11 am Post subject: Re: Upper Torsion arm missing a bolt |
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Good news for you is that if you wind up needing parts - I have all of them and can ship them to you quickly. I have the grub screw, nut and a stabilizer bar (the bar that goes across the top from one side to the other).
You may wind up needing ball joints if yours are worn or they are damaged during the repair work. I've got those as well.
Feel free to email me if you want any of the parts - the prices are reasonable because I don't need any of them and I'm trying to reduce my parts collection. |
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ajl1971
Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2010
Posts: 89
Location: New York
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:07 pm Post subject: Re: Upper Torsion arm missing a bolt |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
| ajl1971 wrote: |
| Bobnotch wrote: |
| ajl1971 wrote: |
Thanks for the clarification, I guess I just need to adjusted, the other thing is why on the driver side as you can see on the picture with the thick red arrow, where the control arm goes in it looks like the center piece is not flush, its sunk in like Everette mentioned it. |
Personally, I'd remove both upper trailing arms from the spindles, and then remove the right upper trailing arm. Once I did that, I'd remove the left trailing arm AND torsion bar from the beam. Next I'd separate the left trailing arm from the torsion bar. Then I'd flip the torsion bar over and drill a new divot into the bar in the same location as the original divot was.
I'd then replace the grub screw (and use loctite when tightening that screw) on the left side and reassemble the torsion bar/trailing arm and re-install it into the beam. Then put it all back together and adjust the torsion bar on the right side with the adjusting screw, as per Bentley (front end section).
Doing all of this will let you go back to driving the car safely, and is basically a permanent repair. I would however keep an eye on the left side end of the torsion bar. I say that, because IF you're still pulling the bar thru the trailing arm, you might want to look for some new (good used) parts.
I hope this helps. |
Good point, its better to be safe than sorry. How long do you think this will take ? two hours ? Also would I need to have anything extra part just in case ? |
I don't know about 2 hours. I only say that as drilling the dimple could almost take that long. And you'll need to measure first before drilling.
Depending on how long it's been since the beam has been apart, it could take 2 hours just to do that. I don't know what your tool selection is like either, but you're going to need a 30mm socket to remove the upper trailing arm, and separate it from the upper ball joint.
For parts, you'd probably need a new grub screw, to lock the arm to the torsion bar. |
Do you happen to have a picture of the torsion bar? I see on the diagram that it has a little hole on each end |
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4504
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:10 am Post subject: Re: Upper Torsion arm missing a bolt |
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Two for comparison - look good from far away:
The top one I wouldn't use, the bottom one is good:
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22413
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:30 am Post subject: Re: Upper Torsion arm missing a bolt |
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| ataraxia wrote: |
Two for comparison - look good from far away:
The top one I wouldn't use, the bottom one is good:
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Yup, the top one has the problem you're dealing with right now.
And the bottom one is for a Squareback (slightly thicker bar).
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4504
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: Upper Torsion arm missing a bolt |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
Yup, the top one has the problem you're dealing with right now.
And the bottom one is for a Squareback (slightly thicker bar). |
Those are both from a Squareback - they work just fine on the Notch and Fasty. |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22413
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: Upper Torsion arm missing a bolt |
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| ataraxia wrote: |
| Bobnotch wrote: |
Yup, the top one has the problem you're dealing with right now.
And the bottom one is for a Squareback (slightly thicker bar). |
Those are both from a Squareback - they work just fine on the Notch and Fasty. |
It might just be the camera angle, but the top one looks slightly smaller in diameter. But yes, a Squareback bar WILL work just fine in a Notch or Fastback.
I believe the OP has a 66 Square though.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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