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bd1308
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Joined: August 06, 2005
Posts: 124
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 Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:50 am Post subject: AMC Heads |
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Hey!
I have a question about AMC Heads. I was wanting to build a new bus engine for my VW, but I was wondering just how reliable the AMC heads are?250 for a head is a good price to me but I wanted to make sure it would last a while too. A buddy of mine just finsihed a engine build featuring the AMC heads, and he hasnt had any problems for 13k or more.
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GreenBrick
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Joined: February 08, 2006
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Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:54 am Post subject: |
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I've heard that the castings are very good, but the valves they come with are suspect.
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Steve
'78 Westfalia 2.0L FI (Abigail) R.I.P. |
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Randy in Maine
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Joined: August 03, 2003
Posts: 34890
Location: The Beach
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:36 am Post subject: |
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If the people you are buying them from do not know what the term "improved AMC heads " means, go someplace else even if they get you closer to $450 each. The payoff is in the long term.
By the way, you only get to post the same question in one forum.
Last edited by Randy in Maine on Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:39 am; edited 1 time in total |
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bd1308
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:39 am Post subject: |
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and where would that be?
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Randy in Maine
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germansupplyscott
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Joined: May 22, 2004
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Location: toronto
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:30 pm Post subject: Re: AMC Heads |
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| bd1308 wrote: |
| 250 for a head is a good price to me |
that's a good price to me, too. please tell me where you are getting a new AMC head for 250.00. you must be referring to an AVP rebuilt head.
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SL
Last edited by germansupplyscott on Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jake Raby
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Joined: August 23, 2003
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Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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Wholesale cost is more than 250 bucks per head...
I do not promote the unaltered use of the AMC heads, their valves, springs, hardware and etc are very poor quality. I sell them "off the shelf" but call every customer after they order to warn them of the quality issues.
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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bd1308
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Posts: 124
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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i meant to type 350, and thats from aircooled.net
I'm still doing research...
If this engine lasts 50k, i'll be happy.
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germansupplyscott
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Joined: May 22, 2004
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Location: toronto
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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aircooled.net charges 399.00.
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SL |
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bd1308
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Joined: August 06, 2005
Posts: 124
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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hmm i thought it was 350...but if its 399 then its 399...
I guess I shouldnt start the whole hydro vs solid discussion should i?
I'll just leave that to the imagination....
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germansupplyscott
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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i am not trying to bust chops, there is a point to this. you are starting a public discussion that others are going to read, participate in, an hopefully learn from. the premise of your question is "should i buy such-and-such product for such-and-such price?". the facts of your question need to be accurate or the discussion becomes pointless.
you can rephrase the question "are the brand new AMC heads worth 400.00 each?" the answer could be phrased "maybe, and only if you know what your are buying". as jake said above, the AMC heads are marginal out of the box, but very good if they are modified with new seats, valves and springs. at that point they are no longer 400.00, however.
cylinder heads have become a sticky problem on the type 4 engine. rebuildable cores are getting extremely scarce. the machine shop i use - the best air-cooled head rebuilder in canada - now refuses to rebuild any type 4 heads in most circumstances because the cores are almost always junk. h is not the only shop who is taking this position. so the days of a buying a pair of good type 4 heads for 4 or 5 hundred bucks are long gone, unless you get lucky.
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zabo
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Location: ATL
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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dont buy avp rebuilds
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Jake Raby
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Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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I'll match any advertised retail price you can find for the AMC heads out of the box..
50K life can be a long life for some parts, the valve components in the off the shelf AMC heads would be maxxed out at 50K and I doubt they would last that long without worn guides and stretched valves.
Here are how cheap the valve parts are in the off the shelf heads:
Sometimes I order the heads bare, they only charge 14 bucks PER PAIR my cost to send me the bare heads... So that means they have less than 20 bucks in 8 valves, 8 springs, 8 retainers and 16 keepers...
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
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ratwell
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Joined: April 26, 2003
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Location: Victoria, BC
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Jake Raby wrote: |
| So that means they have less than 20 bucks in 8 valves, 8 springs, 8 retainers and 16 keepers... |
That might be true if there was a competitive casting out there but since it's a monopoly it just says that's what they can get away with charging you.
Based on the $14 parts and labor to install those parts and your theory, we might be talking a few bucks for those parts. I guess that means $2 parts that last 50-65k? It would seem so.
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regis101
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Location: Livermore, Ca
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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I've seen pictures of their valves after a good strech with the wasser heads. Not good.
Are the AMC seats and guides at least useable? |
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Jake Raby
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Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| ratwell wrote: |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| So that means they have less than 20 bucks in 8 valves, 8 springs, 8 retainers and 16 keepers... |
That might be true if there was a competitive casting out there but since it's a monopoly it just says that's what they can get away with charging you.
Based on the $14 parts and labor to install those parts and your theory, we might be talking a few bucks for those parts. I guess that means $2 parts that last 50-65k? It would seem so. |
Nope, I know what valves they are and where they come from. When not even buying in quantities of hundreds at a time the valves can be bought for 3 bucks each..
Keep in mind that it also takes a worker a minimum of 10 minutes to assemble a pair of heads and thats included in that 14 buck break as well.
I also do not trust their seat material and seat installation. They staking of the seats is hideous and even though they don't "fall out" the valve jobs don't last long at all if the EGT ever gets over 1300. Bus engines will touch 1300 fairly easy, especially those with stock cams and L jet..
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
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"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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ratwell
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Joined: April 26, 2003
Posts: 8717
Location: Victoria, BC
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Nope, I know what valves they are and where they come from. |
They vary from time to time. Perhaps these days they are from Italy or maybe Israel or elsewhere.
| Quote: |
| Keep in mind that it also takes a worker a minimum of 10 minutes to assemble a pair of heads and thats included in that 14 buck break as well. |
I think I said that already. $3/valve x 8 valves = $24 + the cost of all the other parts mentioned which is why I was also saying that the $14 they credit you is probably a lot less that what the parts are worth. QED.
| Quote: |
| I also do not trust their seat material and seat installation. They staking of the seats is hideous and even though they don't "fall out" the valve jobs don't last long at all if the EGT ever gets over 1300. |
How many miles did that bus head last?
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Jake Raby
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Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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That head lasted 5K before it lost comprssion and had to be torn down...
I know of engines with 65K on them with these heads and others with 2K or less before issues arise...
Its basically dependant upon your luck, the parts they are using when they assemble the heads and the operating temp of the engine.
The cost of new valves, good springs and chromoly retainers is well worth the expense. The parts are just over 200 bucks, but could save you a bare minimum of 2K when "It breaks"... Sometimes thats an "if"...
I'd rather take a risk with a valve seat thats crappy as valve hardware thats crappy. Seats damage only the heads and sometimes waste a piston, but when a valve, spring or retainer lets go at any decent speed you can say goodbye to many, many more parts..
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
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"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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ratwell
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Location: Victoria, BC
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Jake Raby wrote: |
| That head lasted 5K before it lost comprssion and had to be torn down... |
How did the bus have to be driven to hit 1300F EGT?
| Quote: |
| They staking of the seats is hideous |
So how do you undo the damage of the staking when you replace the seats?
| Quote: |
| Its basically dependant upon your luck |
So it would behoove everyone to take out the valves and inspect the head first.
| regis101 wrote: |
| I've seen pictures of their valves after a good strech with the wasser heads. |
That's the symptom. What caused it?
One famous photo is from Lucas at GoWesty!
The problem on the left could probably have been avoided if the keepers were ground down so they didn't touch.
The problem on the right is probably as described (poor contact between valve and seat). Unfortunately right now AMC heads are heavily marked up by most vendors (especially if they dropship) otherwise you could pay for an hour of machine shop time and have the seats and valve cleaned up for a reasonable cost.
But before that is done you can inspect the valves to make sure they are making good contact before reassembly and installation.
| Quote: |
| Are the AMC seats and guides at least useable? |
It's like any part you buy 25 years after the factory stopped making vehicles: If you can examine it first, you should.
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Jake Raby
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Joined: August 23, 2003
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Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:54 am Post subject: |
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Buy an EGT gauge and you'll see that when climbing a decent grade (especially at part throttle) the engine will run upward of 1250 EGT and thats fine. Even engines that are perfectly tuned will do this, especially with stock cams and EFI as both of those build EGT.
A typical stock Bus engine can operate at over 1300F really easily without being pushed super hard and without being ran out of tune, those things just make it occur that much faster and run even higher EGT.
The staking is easy to remove as our seats are a tad larger than factory on the OD, even for stock sized valves.
The valve pictured is just a "Burn't valve".. High EGT didn't cause that, a tight valve clearance (zero) did as the valve was slightly held open through the combustion periods and allowed hot gasses past it long enough for it to "Burn and warp the stem... A valve that doesn't seat fully is a hot valve and it will burn. I'd attribute this one to a hydraulic lifter!
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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