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Kramer79
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2017
Posts: 29
Location: Connecticut
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 Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:48 pm Post subject: 69 Beetle Brakes |
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Hi all,
So I did my first attempt at new brakes...put all new pads, wheel cylinders , springs, flex hoses one hard line, and then I did an adjustment... backed off on the stars after a bit of drag. Bled the brakes with the pump a few times and hold method, some bubbles and old dirty stuff came out into the bottle. Got excited to drive it and put it all back together. So.... the pedal goes to the floor, and the last tiny bit, near the floor, almost stops the car... and the e brake is not much better and won’t stop the car. (Don’t ask how I got it back in the garage)
Do I need to bleed more? Could the pads have come that loose all of a sudden? Master cylinder? Thanks... not sure what to do... I can bleed again the tires on right?
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sb001
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:54 pm Post subject: Re: 69 Beetle Brakes |
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What ORDER did you bleed the brakes in?
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I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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Kramer79
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2017
Posts: 29
Location: Connecticut
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| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:12 pm Post subject: Re: 69 Beetle Brakes |
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| Right rear left rear right front left front... |
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31379
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:24 pm Post subject: Re: 69 Beetle Brakes |
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If the parking brake doesn't hold VW on like 4 clicks, then the rea brakes are not adjusted tight enough.
Recommend adjusting all four wheels tight (yes, can adjust and bleed with tires on), THEN doing the bleeding. When pedal is tight, back off each brake adjustment a hair !!
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24764
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:46 pm Post subject: Re: 69 Beetle Brakes |
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| Kramer79 wrote: |
| Right rear left rear right front left front... |
You need to bleed the front axle first and the rear axle last.
Also need to adjust all brake stars for full lock of each shoe against the drum.
Lastly get the "Volkswagen Official Service Manual" for your year and type of VW, NOW.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/search.php...ton=Search
With that manual in hand you can work smarter.
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24764
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:53 pm Post subject: Re: 69 Beetle Brakes |
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Would also help to have some history info on the beetle and brake parts, especially the master cylinder, flex hoses, etc... Like you just got it out of a field where it sat for 10 years, or you have been driving it with no problems for several months and the DPO drove it daily.
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sb001
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:05 pm Post subject: Re: 69 Beetle Brakes |
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| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| You need to bleed the front axle first and the rear axle last. |
This is TOTALLY wrong. The OP did it correctly.
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24764
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:19 pm Post subject: Re: 69 Beetle Brakes |
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| sb001 wrote: |
| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| You need to bleed the front axle first and the rear axle last. |
This is TOTALLY wrong. The OP did it correctly. |
Then why does our original 1500 type 3 and type 2 1963-67 workshop manuals, and the Service manuals ( two manuals for type 1 and two for the type 2) have this info in them?
Get out any of the VW produced manuals you have and start reading up.
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Kramer79
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2017
Posts: 29
Location: Connecticut
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| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:23 pm Post subject: Re: 69 Beetle Brakes |
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Yeah all my info said farthest from the master first.. I think the e brake not catching makes the tighten plan the first attempt...now to remember the way those stars turn  thanks! |
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sb001
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:25 pm Post subject: Re: 69 Beetle Brakes |
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| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| sb001 wrote: |
| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| You need to bleed the front axle first and the rear axle last. |
This is TOTALLY wrong. The OP did it correctly. |
Then why does our original 1500 type 3 and type 2 1963-67 workshop manuals, and the Service manuals ( two manuals for type 1 and two for the type 2) have this info in them?
Get out any of the VW produced manuals you have and start reading up. |
Did you see my photo above??
Please post a photo of this info off your manuals.
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I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24764
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: 69 Beetle Brakes |
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That manual is for pre-1967 beetles with single circuit MC.
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AlmostHeavenWV_VW 
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2017
Posts: 1966
Location: WV
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| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:46 pm Post subject: Re: 69 Beetle Brakes |
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| sb001 wrote: |
| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| sb001 wrote: |
| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| You need to bleed the front axle first and the rear axle last. |
This is TOTALLY wrong. The OP did it correctly. |
Then why does our original 1500 type 3 and type 2 1963-67 workshop manuals, and the Service manuals ( two manuals for type 1 and two for the type 2) have this info in them?
Get out any of the VW produced manuals you have and start reading up. |
Did you see my photo above??
Please post a photo of this info off your manuals. |
Now, now boys. Play nice...after all you're both right 
Bentley specifies front right first
Chilton, Haynes specify rear right first
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1973 Standard Beetle
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sb001
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:54 pm Post subject: Re: 69 Beetle Brakes |
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| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| That manual is for pre-1967 beetles with single circuit MC. |
Wrong again:
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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sb001
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:56 pm Post subject: Re: 69 Beetle Brakes |
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| AlmostHeavenWV_VW wrote: |
Bentley specifies front right first
Chilton, Haynes specify rear right first |
You might be correct, I've heard the orange bentley says one thing and the blue Bentley says another (why I asked for a photo.) So I'll stick with my Chilton's which doesn't change its mind halfway through publications 
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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74 Thing
Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2004
Posts: 7393
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| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:11 pm Post subject: Re: 69 Beetle Brakes |
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| I adjust all shoes tight to the drums and bleed the fronts first then move to the backs on a dual master cylinder. |
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Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24764
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:12 pm Post subject: Re: 69 Beetle Brakes |
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First one is from the 1966-69 type 1 Bentley.
These two are from 1970-79 Bentley.
Since VW started installing the dual circuit MC in 1967, Bentley at least kept up with the change.
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sb001
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:34 pm Post subject: Re: 69 Beetle Brakes |
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Fair enough.
Why would they say start with the front right?? 
Anyway, I need to bleed my brakes in the next few days- be interesting to try this order (right front. left front, right rear, left rear) and see if it makes a difference...
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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| Back to top |
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Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24764
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:35 pm Post subject: Re: 69 Beetle Brakes |
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dual brake bleeding according to Delius, Klasing & Co. VW Service Manual printed 1968
From the hard to find over here in the N. America "Volkswagen Service Manual VW 1300 1500. Page 252
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Mos6502
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Joined: December 30, 2015
Posts: 725
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| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:46 pm Post subject: Re: 69 Beetle Brakes |
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There is technically no reason to start at either the front or the rear on a dual circuit system. I guess bleeding the front brakes first gives the mechanic a faster sense of accomplishment though 
On the single circuit system you start at the rear because it is furthest away from the master cylinder, and all the brakes are on one hydraulic circuit. On a dual circuit, the front and rear are on different circuits, it makes no difference which is done first, so long as you do the furthest brake on either circuit first, then the closest on that circuit, before moving to the next circuit.
Yes we can bicker over the manuals ad-nauseum. Whatever. But doing the rear first isn't going to make your brakes not work, that points to a different issue.
Also when you adjust the brakes - it's ok if you hear/feel some drag. Rookies make the mistake of backing off until they feel none. |
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24764
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:52 pm Post subject: Re: 69 Beetle Brakes |
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| sb001 wrote: |
Fair enough.
Why would they say start with the front right??
Anyway, I need to bleed my brakes in the next few days- be interesting to try this order (right front. left front, right rear, left rear) and see if it makes a difference... |
Because you always start on each axle on the wheel farthest away from the MC. Wish VW stated that, because folks who drive on the LH side of the road like the UK, and Nippon have the MC on the RH side of the VW....
Also helps hugely not to pound on the brake pedal when bleeding. That sends shock waves thru the brake fluid breaking up really easy to bleed large air bubbles into much smaller harder to bleed bubbles.
Same with brake fluid. Resist the temptation to shake the bottle and fill the fluid with small air bubbles.
Have changed to DOT 5 brake fluid which does not have the water and rust problem the other fluids have by sucking moisture right out of the air. Went from pulling the all the cylinders apart every 18 to 24 months with DOT 3 to remove rust and inspect, to eight years and needing to replace piston seals. Only problem with the DOT 5 with daily driving is it is thicker and thusly easier to get small bubbles in it when poured. To help with this, like to pour in the fluid and let it sit over night at least. Next day bleed the brakes.
Good habit to bleed brakes with DOT 5 once a year in the Spring, do each wheel cylinder one good burp to remove any water that may have collected in the very bottom of the system. DOT 5 and water tend to separate like water and oil do.
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