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Did I buy a fraudulent van?
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sambathrowaway
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:00 pm    Post subject: Did I buy a fraudulent van? Reply with quote

I bought a Vanagon from thesamba. Everything went fine with the sale the seller was local to me and I got the vehicle title transferred to me. I have registration and plates now.

I was spending some time figuring out my engine and searched for where to find the stamped engine numbers. One of the results mentioned where to find the VIN stamps as well and I think you can see where this is going. I found out that the VIN on the chassis behind passenger wheel is not the same as VIN on the dash. Dash VIN starts WV2YB025 chassis VIN starts WV2ZZZ24 the rest of the numbers don't match either. I located the sticker on the driver door and that matches the last part of the chassis VIN not the dash VIN. #$@&%*!

I also have some paperwork from previous owner and the owner before that including the previous owner's registration and an emissions test result from the owner before that. All of the paperwork references the dash VIN. I also noticed that the paperwork had mileage listed but when I bought the van the speedometer was busted.

So now I feel like a fool and not sure what to do next. Should I try to get a title issued with the chassis VIN? But I have no bill of sale for the chassis VIN. I am very unsure about what I can do from here.
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Abscate Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:38 pm    Post subject: Re: did I buy a fraudulent van Reply with quote

Many states reassign VINS when a salvage vehicle or previously'lost' vehicle is re-registered. No reason to panic.

If the person is local and in stable location, it is doubtful anything nefarious has happened.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:47 pm    Post subject: Re: did I buy a fraudulent van Reply with quote

Abscate wrote:
Many states reassign VINS when a salvage vehicle or previously'lost' vehicle is re-registered. No reason to panic.

If the person is local and in stable location, it is doubtful anything nefarious has happened.


Agreed
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elizer Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:49 pm    Post subject: Re: did I buy a fraudulent van Reply with quote

Just throwing random stuff out. Maybe an import that had a vin swapped onto it.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:56 pm    Post subject: Re: did I buy a fraudulent van Reply with quote

The "ZZZ" Vin is not a US Model. It does appear from your description that the Vin on the dash was changed to a US Vin number.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:14 pm    Post subject: Re: did I buy a fraudulent van Reply with quote

The two VINs that matter are the dash VIN (in the window) and the one on the paper M-Code label, low down on the dash structure to the left of the steering wheel.
And if your lucky to still have the original owners manual the VIN will also be listed there.
The number stamped into the chassis behind the wheel is only the blank chassis number used in factory and is different.

Here's more info.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6236040#6236040
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HBB
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:01 pm    Post subject: Re: did I buy a fraudulent van Reply with quote

I've honestly never bothered to look at the VIN's in my van, but the "ZZZ" VIN you found on the frame is an issue that comes up on here pretty regularly:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5902360

Basically it boils down to the manufacturer stamping VIN's on chassis with Z's as placeholders for numbers/letters that were dependent upon how the completed vehicle was configured.
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sambathrowaway
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:10 pm    Post subject: Re: did I buy a fraudulent van Reply with quote

"Dash VIN starts WV2YB025 chassis VIN starts WV2ZZZ24 the rest of the numbers don't match either."

I read about the ZZZ. Even after that there is no match on the windshield VIN and chassis VIN.

The paper tag at driver's left knee was painted over but is still there just not readable. The paper sticker on the driver door jamb is still there and matches the numbers on the chassis VIN but none of the numbers on the windshield VIN. I thought this meant someone had swapped VIN tags but I would like to be wrong. How would I know if it was a totally new VIN like Abscate said.
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elizer Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:17 pm    Post subject: Re: did I buy a fraudulent van Reply with quote

If it was a dmv assigned vin I thought it was some arbitrary number/letters that they use instead of something that seems VW-ish or resembling a manufacturer vin?
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Howesight
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:26 pm    Post subject: Re: did I buy a fraudulent van Reply with quote

Perhaps you should speak to the seller ASAP. You may be able to sue for rescission of your contract of sale. Arguably, you contracted to purchase the vehicle described in the contract of purchase and sale, not a vehicle that merely had the dashboard with the VIN of the vehicle registration. You may find re-selling the vehicle later to be difficult except as parts, so you appear not to have received what you bargained for.

The VIN sticker on the driver's door post ("B" pillar) should match the one on the dash and also the paper one that MsTaboo described above. The VIN on the front right outrigger should mostly agree with the dash VIN, except for the "ZZZZ" part.
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davevickery
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:37 pm    Post subject: Re: did I buy a fraudulent van Reply with quote

Sounds like the dash was switched out. Maybe there was a problem with the title to the original vehicle's VIN. The numbers should match everywhere, except the chassis, but the last digits there should match. I don't think you need to get a new title, but I would be concerned what happened with the original VIN. Maybe it was a state where you can't repair certain types of totals, or maybe it was stolen. Or maybe a previous owner just had 2 donor vans that he put together to make one good one.
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termuehlen Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:43 pm    Post subject: Re: did I buy a fraudulent van Reply with quote

sambathrowaway wrote:

I also have some paperwork from previous owner and the owner before that including the previous owner's registration and an emissions test result from the owner before that. All of the paperwork references the dash VIN. I also noticed that the paperwork had mileage listed but when I bought the van the speedometer was busted.


What State is the emissions test information from? I am asking because in California, you can look up a Vehicle's emissions history online using the VIN number. https://www.bar.ca.gov/pubwebquery/Vehicle/PubTstQry.aspx

Have you invested in a Carfax report using the dash VIN number? All of this is just to get more information about the vehicle attached to the VIN number on your dash, and help verify if it is the vehicle you have purchased.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:54 pm    Post subject: Re: did I buy a fraudulent van Reply with quote

Life lesson learned.........

Never EVER purchase a vehicle without verifying the VIN numbers to the sellers title.

A Hard lesson, possibly an expensive lesson but a lesson learned never the less.

Dave
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sambathrowaway
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:11 pm    Post subject: Re: did I buy a fraudulent van Reply with quote

vehicle is in good shape so I don't think this was a total or 2 vans combined into one. The ZZZ means it was imported so I guess the VIN thing is related to import?

I bought the vehicle in WA state. The owner before that who has their name on the emissions record was in OR.

How do I find out if it was a stolen van? Am I incriminating myself if I call up the DMV and ask them to run the number? I will try running a carfax for both VINs.

I am sick over this. I paid full price for this vehicle and condition is great. I did check that the VIN on the title matched the VIN on the dash before making the deal I just did not think to look at every VIN.


Last edited by sambathrowaway on Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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crazyvwvanman
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:50 pm    Post subject: Re: did I buy a fraudulent van Reply with quote

ALL vans have the ZZZ in the low crossmember position. That part of it doesn't mean a thing. It is the last 8 digits that tell the most to the authorities who specialize in this.

You may have a serious issue if you get in an accident or try to sell.

Vin number tampering is viewed very seriously. Somebody did this and it was illegal.

Mark


sambathrowaway wrote:
vehicle is in good shape so I don't think this was a total or 2 vans combined into one. The ZZZ means it was imported so I guess the VIN thing is related to import?

I bought the vehicle in WA state. The owner before that who has their name on the emissions record was in OR.

How do I find out if it was a stolen van? Am I incriminating myself if I call up the DMV and ask them to run the number? I will try running a carfax for both VINs.

I am sick over this. I paid 15k for this vehicle and condition is great. I did check that the VIN on the title matched the VIN on the dash before making the deal I just did not think to look at every VIN.
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sambathrowaway
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:34 pm    Post subject: Re: did I buy a fraudulent van Reply with quote

I ran carfax on the dash VIN and there is history going back to the van being shipped new to the US. This van is not from the US so I think that is the smoking gun and someone took another van and title and used that to title this van.

I understand that the ZZZ is unimportant. I want to make sure that everyone understands the ZZZ is not the part of the VINS where I saw the problem. The two VINs start to not match right after the ZZZ part.

I know how seriously the law treats VIN tampering and I want to do the right thing. That means if the van is stolen I want to return it to the owner. If the van had the VIN tampered with multiple owners ago as part of its import and is not stolen I want to know if there is anything I can do to make it right so that I have clear title to this van.

What I am worried about is I contact the police, the police take the van because the VIN was tampered with. There will be no evidence of who tampered with the VIN so nobody gets charged. And then I guess I am out the money?

If I don't do anything I will never be able to sell and I will be worried about accidents or being towed or being mistaken for the person who changed the VIN.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:38 pm    Post subject: Re: did I buy a fraudulent van Reply with quote

So there is also no black sticker on the outside edge of the driver pillar? Probably whoever changed things would have removed it I guess.

You should be able to figure out the complete VIN # using the coding of the first numbers along with the last numbers on the frame. So you could find out if it was reported stolen. And I think there are data bases that don't need all the numbers also. I think I keyed them into Google and it pulled up my van from just the last digits. But maybe the first step is to call the seller or the state police? How long has it been since you bought it?

If you just bought it you might see if the seller will take it back willingly. And maybe he has some explanation we are not thinking of. If not you may have to get the police or courts involved. The seller may or may not have known. You will probably be able to tell by his reaction to your call. You might also be able to work with the seller and the DMV to get a bonded title with the correct VIN. That sounds like a hassle to me especially for a tintop. (now don't tell us it is a Westy, the Y in the vin says it is a passenger van).

Once I bought a Motorcycle in NH and couldnt' title it in Mass because the taxes hadn't been paid on the last couple of ownership transfers when it was used only as a dirtbike. I wanted to plate the bike, but the seller wouldn't pay the back taxes so I forced him to take it back and give me my money back. Frustrating experience.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:54 pm    Post subject: Re: did I buy a fraudulent van Reply with quote

Just saw your new post. So you know for different reasons that the van was not originally a US Van? The VIN on the dash is a US VIN. I think Canada uses the same coding. But it the van was originally sold in Germany and imported to the US I believe it would actually have had ZZZ in the dash vin. They are basically extra digits that we use and other countries don't. So why did you think it was imported, did the seller tell you? That would mean he knows the history. And ofcourse, they all were German imports, but I mean imported after original sale in another country. And if it was not originally a US van, it wans't imported correctly and legally, otherwise the paperwork would reflect it.
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sambathrowaway
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:56 pm    Post subject: Re: did I buy a fraudulent van Reply with quote

I have

A VIN at the windshield: shows same VIN as on title
A painted over sticker at driver left knee: illegible
A stamp on the frame below passenger tire: shows the ZZZ VIN
A sticker on passenger b pillar: shows last 8 alphanumeric of the ZZZ VIN
A metal plate under driver seat: shows last 8 alphanumeric of the ZZZ VIN

Odd man out is the windshield VIN which is also the VIN on the title.


Last edited by sambathrowaway on Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:17 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:00 pm    Post subject: Re: did I buy a fraudulent van Reply with quote

sambathrowaway wrote:
I have

A sticker on driver b pillar: shows last 8 alphanumeric of the ZZZ VIN


That is the full actual VIN.
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