Steering play again... Can't find the play, what am I missing?

[74 Thing]

I watched the OP youtube video and that severe clunk needs to me accounted for-something is loose or worn out or in need of an adjustment somewhere.

Removing the gas tank and putting your hand on suspension components while someone turns the wheel back and forth should lead you to that problem area in the suspension.

Your car is lowered correct-what about bump stop?

[mark tucker]

I grab the coupler(rag joint) with 1 hand and grab other componets asI turn the rag back&forth. having your hand on the other componets and tuching a peice that is also supposed to be moving will tell your hand hey theres some play hear...or not. even ngrabing the rag joint move it back& forth holding the steering arm/pitmanarm.thingy that go's on the bottom of the steering box can tell you if it's the box or past the box. I checked my 4 wheeler yesterday. it has 2 loose tir rod ends..so i ordered some more.although Ill probably tighten those up some in a vice for spares...or just keep as spares as they are not real loose. sometimes if 2 are loose it may be hard to tell one is if you already know the other is.( mine has 4) it took some fealing to finaly get the "feed back" I needed to determan I need 2. so dont just stop when you think you have found it there may be more than one thing adding to a stack up of tollarance's/clearances.

[nextgen]

I agree with Mark, bug had had a mind of it's own on the road, took it to two alignment shops the put it on the lift and said safe to drive we see nothing wrong. What was wrong was these guys were idiots!!!

My friend restores bugs from $20k to $70k , he said go to his shop. I thinking Steering box, Nope!!! Told me to replace tye rod ends and ball joints.

Was not much more for new tye rods, Done Drives like new at high speeds.

Could not fined the anything lose, but they knew.

Similar with my Solara anti sway bar rod, like a tye rod. This time a CLUNK.

Bought new part -- no more CLUNK and when off, could not feel it as loose-
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[Googlestein]

I'm going to pull it mostly apart this weekend and check everything out. The main noise in the videos is the upper steering bushing in the column. I do not have a headliner in right now and in person it sounds way more like a metal to plastic sticking sound. I did order a new column bushing and will test my theory out when it's not hooked to the box below.

On the PREVIOUS boxes I have checked the worm gear (big nut/plug) play but since I've posted this and tried this "fresh" box I have yet to adjust that.

I looked back through two of my VW books Bentley and another thats OLD (fix your VW by Jud) both books talk about adjusting the steering box but I do not see that I'm supposed to turn the wheel 90* after being at center before adjusting. They both talk about doing the adjustment when you are perfectly centered. Unless I'm reading this wrong... "Bring the selector shaft arm at a right angle with the steering worm and tighten then back off 1/8th turn." Isn't the sector shaft at the right angle with the worm gear when you are centered?

I can see how adjusting the gear off center will allow you to get a tighter fit, however seems like you're more able to be too tight.

If I'm wrong please tell me hell it might be what I'm repeatedly doing wrong!

I'm going to rip into it tomorrow weather permitting and give it one more go.

I've grabbed the lower coupler bracket with a pair of channel locks and the steering wheel does not move a hair.

With the lower tie rods off at the pitman arm. I still get the sound AND the play while holding onto the pitman arm. Thats why I still believe I keep buying shit boxes or am adjusting it wrong.

Once I get rid of the noise (hopefully this weekend) and give it this last attempt from the spindles UP, maybe next weekend I'll pull the beam completely and check the inner bushings. Giving it a fresh start over from the ground up.

After that I'm burning the car to the ground or taking it to last local shop. More the later option.

[74 Thing]

Definitely take care of the steering column bushing/bearing first and work your way down.

You can probably disconnect the steering column at the coupler area and turn the suspension by the coupler with the gas tank out to see where the play is.

The turn the steering wheel 90 degrees is in the later model orange Bentley Type 1 book, some info is posted here and I am sure the instructions are posted somewhere on this site https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=406916&highlight=steering+box+instructions

Push upward on the pitman arm and reach in and turn the steering column and see if that gets rid of the slop.

We have all wanted to burn our car and push it off a cliff at one time or another!

[nextgen]

74Thing I agree with your last sentence. Till you get it fixed and drive it, feel unique because your are driving machine, then all of a sudden you realize why you didn't like the match.
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[74 Thing]

This is a Thing factory manual, but the steering box adjustment is the same for Type 1s-refer to pages 614-616:

https://riverdrivedesigns.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/VW-Thing-Service-Manual-All.pdf

My instructions above were a bit off. My memory is not what is used to be. To adjust place the car with the wheels on the ground and turn lock to lock and adjust the big lock nut on the end and plug and turn to the other side and do the same-turn the wheel to make sure nothing is binding.

For the top one you can jack up the car, but to check play you have to drop the wheels back to the ground. Turn the steering wheel 90 degrees to one since and loosen the top nut and then back off then screw in the set screw until it just touches. Then turn the steering wheel to the other side and do the same. Then check for binding.

The manual suggested things that have been recommended already-checking the steering coupler, steering box clamp, tie rod ends...

[OKType3Tim]

This is also useful:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/practicalwork_steering.php

FYI, I've also seen a unit where the circlip that holds the adjuster screw on the top of the roller shaft came out of its slot. Adjuster screw would not set properly with the lock nut locked properly; and the roller shaft jumped up and down.

Looking forward to what you found today. Also, echoing my earlier comment and several others on here: You will be surprised/shocked at how much play that is in all the "other" components in the steering linkage. Yes, even with new components.

And: these vehicles are what they are. And their steering mechanisms aren't like our modern day daily drivers that we jump in all the time.
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[Googlestein]

Where to being... How about Thank you for all the advise so far.

Todays findings:

1) Removed front sway bar = allowed my front end to bounce up and down like an "episode of Baywatch" (no more sticking when I push it down).

2) Steering wheel column bushing was original (probably made of rubber
and asbestos) and was causing the noise everyone thought was the clunking sound. I actually pulled my car out of the garage and laughed at how quite the noise was. The echo with no headliner and being indoors was crazy how much it changed the sound.

3) Completely isolated the steering box and only mounted the coupler disk. Found three concerns:

3A) Steering box is no ware close to being at it's tightest spot in relation to
counting the turn method. It's tightest spot was located 3/4 of a turn from
the counting methods center. Good call J-Dub

3B) The pitman arm pinch bolt was at it's maximum depth due to the
shoulder of the bolt. It gets snug on the steering shaft but it's definitely
hitting the shoulder as it snugs up on the shaft. Could be a small part of
the problem. The WWest one doesn't have a shoulder will that matter if I
buy that one?

3C) The original bolts in my steering coupler fit very loosely in the
coupler. Under torque I doubt they are moving much, however the metal
inserts in the coupler appear to be wallowed out a tad.

4) Most importantly The only part I've farmed out on my car (besides the transmission) are so dang loose I'm ready to light the match! My drivers King pin is so loose I can grab my brake caliper and spindle tie rod mount and get 1/16" deflection watching the grease puke out at the carrier right below the upper link pin by the top cap. For facks sake this pisses me off. First shop they were so loose the king pin would fall right through, second try I got maybe 1000 miles and I bet it would fall right through again. Is there anything on my end that would cause this last set to wear out so fast?

Needles to say the car is parked for the winter, and the complete beam is coming out and being rebuilt.

I have 2 "a" VW steering boxes and plan on pulling the last one apart to check it's guts. The only thing I am unsure about is the worm gear wear. I have a good measuring selector shaft, soon newly bushing top cap, and a good case. The last good part I need is the worm gear. hopefully the one in the other box is good, but only time will tell.

[OKType3Tim]

[Googlestein]

Thanks Tim that's the last part I need besides your kit and that top cap. Sadly I have some work to do around the house before our rainy winter. I have a good amount of time.

[74 Thing]

Sucks, but is looks like you found your problems with the three findings you listed above.

King pin reamer
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1797191

[Googlestein]

So today I pulled the front beam and all the components apart.

I found my inner torsion bushings at exactly 6" ID in from the edge of the tubes.

Looking in relation to the torque arms that give me only 3/8 to 1/2 of mating surface at the inner bushings.

I'll go looking through the Bently books but does that sound about right?

Also I'll bring my bore gauge home tomorrow, does anyone know what the ID of the inner bushings should be?

Might as well check before I put it back together.

Oh and I found another shop to try my king pins for the third time...

[Googlestein]

Update

So I pulled the beam and checked the bushings, the ID of the bushings were perfectly within spec on all eight

The shop that redid my king pins said one was loose but not horrid, but it definitely had vertical play.

When I pulled the kind pins apart I noticed another big problem. When it was originally put together it was set with the 10 shim method with the washer and oring seal. However the torsion arms were stock "Oval" arms and have the longer ends where the carrier rests. So the oring washers had no groove to sit in.

On top of that some of the shims were German and others were Brazilian. This didn't set the same distance so the shims were right in count, but wrong in actual thickness.

End result are now 7 German shims with no o- ring or washer and the shim stacks were all measured for accuracy.

Last but not least I rebuilt a steering box according to Tims thread, kit, and advice. Box is set and has half the play the old one did.

The older box was completely trash and almost ever part as out of spec, especially side play on the vertical steering shaft to roller.

The steering tube bushing was removed and replaced with the Wolfsberg West one, and the steering tube was shortened per the Bently book upgrade notes.

So now there is no noise or clunking and the front end is not sticking up or down. So i'm half way through the nightmare. I'm taking it to an alignment shop once they get an opening here in my town to check my caster.

I'm scared to drive this thing and see how the steering is, honestly, but once the rain stops (tomorrow I hope) I'll give it a try. The good news was that I found a few things that were not correct and sooner than later needed to be fixed.