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Do I need to use a thermostat?
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flightofphx
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:41 am    Post subject: Do I need to use a thermostat? Reply with quote

I live in warm Phoenix, AZ. It gets chilly in the deep winter, but freezes are rare and usually last two or three hours in the early morning hours. I garage my 67 Fastback.

I recently bought the car and I don't think the thermostat is installed (to be honest, I haven't checked). Is it necessary to use a thermostat? I think the car will warm up fine with our ambient temps here - but wanted an opinion from the enthusiasts here.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:56 am    Post subject: Re: Do I need to use a thermostat? Reply with quote

You'll be fine without it. I'm in San Diego and havent had one hooked up for years with no obvious issues. You will want to either remove or cut the flaps or put a screw n them to keep them in the open position for full air flow 24/7.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:00 am    Post subject: Re: Do I need to use a thermostat? Reply with quote

I'm in Phoenix and I think you'll be ok except in winter if you are driving it to work in the early morning.
If you do that it might stall a little at stop signs and hesitate a little until it gets warmed up.

If it has flaps, make sure they are set in the open position all the time.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Do I need to use a thermostat? Reply with quote

It will survive without it.
It will live longer with it, especially if you have short trips.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Do I need to use a thermostat? Reply with quote

Yes. That's why the engineers put one there.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Do I need to use a thermostat? Reply with quote

Bill Fisher (Hot to Hotrod Volkwagen Engines) makes a pretty good case for retaining the thermostat even if you live in a warm area.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Do I need to use a thermostat? Reply with quote

Are you going to remove the thermostat in your daily driver also?

Didn't think so. Its there for a reason
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Do I need to use a thermostat? Reply with quote

VW of mexico removed them all together with the efi models. I have been doing this since 1984 and have never used a t-stat. I have however, seen the flaps stuck in the closed position and burn down engines. You cannot compare the aircooled t-stat arangement to any water cooled car, only a fool would.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Do I need to use a thermostat? Reply with quote

mcmscott wrote:
VW of mexico removed them all together with the efi models. I have been doing this since 1984 and have never used a t-stat. I have however, seen the flaps stuck in the closed position and burn down engines. You cannot compare the aircooled t-stat arangement to any water cooled car, only a fool would.


VW of Mexico likely removed them because it's the new style Mexican thermostats that fail in the closed position. I've been doing this since 1975 and have ALWAYS used a thermostat... and I couldn't care less what VWoM does or does not do... I've seen their parts. Rolling Eyes

The aircooled thermostat performs the same function as a watercooled thermostat- to get the engine temp up to spec quickly for most efficient running and fuel burning, adding life to the engine by preventing the build up of harmful byproducts.

Only a fool would leave it off.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:46 am    Post subject: Re: Do I need to use a thermostat? Reply with quote

Do yourself and engine a big favor. Inspect and see if you even have one and the associated components. Even in Phoenix Tucson Yuma I would have the engineered thermostat VW had installed. Your engine will be glad you have it. Quicker warm ups. Now in the event you happen to come to the high country like where I live it is required to have a thermostat.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:09 am    Post subject: Re: Do I need to use a thermostat? Reply with quote

Tram wrote:
mcmscott wrote:
You cannot compare the aircooled t-stat arangement to any water cooled car, only a fool would.

The aircooled thermostat performs the same function as a watercooled thermostat- to get the engine temp up to spec quickly for most efficient running and fuel burning, adding life to the engine by preventing the build up of harmful byproducts.

Only a fool would leave it off.

^^^^^
What he said.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:11 am    Post subject: Re: Do I need to use a thermostat? Reply with quote

gt1953 wrote:
Do yourself and engine a big favor. Inspect and see if you even have one and the associated components. Even in Phoenix Tucson Yuma I would have the engineered thermostat VW had installed. Your engine will be glad you have it. Quicker warm ups. Now in the event you happen to come to the high country like where I live it is required to have a thermostat.


Thanks for the replies and advice. Not to open a Pandora's box here - but what should the warm up time be with a working thermostat? At what temp does it open?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:45 am    Post subject: Re: Do I need to use a thermostat? Reply with quote

Opening temp for the Type 1/Type 3 thermostat is about 65 degrees C (~150 degrees F).

It sits in the warm air dump stream under the right side cylinders. The sled tins (between heat exchangers and crankcase) need to be installed for it to work properly.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:36 am    Post subject: Re: Do I need to use a thermostat? Reply with quote

sjbartnik wrote:
Opening temp for the Type 1/Type 3 thermostat is about 65 degrees C (~150 degrees F).

It sits in the warm air dump stream under the right side cylinders. The sled tins (between heat exchangers and crankcase) need to be installed for it to work properly.


Fuel injection cars have their own slight variant for both Types 1 and 3. Pun intended. Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:40 am    Post subject: Re: Do I need to use a thermostat? Reply with quote

My '71 fastback is garaged in a SoCal valley. When I rebuilt the motor I put the thermostat back in. Even with the warm garage, I noticed quicker warm-ups and earlier steady idle. I figure the smoother running meant it was reaching equilibrium faster, and the result would be less carbon buildup over time.

Also, the heater warmed up within about 2 minutes, instead of 5!
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:30 am    Post subject: Re: Do I need to use a thermostat? Reply with quote

Tram wrote:

Fuel injection cars have their own slight variant for both Types 1 and 3. Pun intended. Smile


Yes, I only mentioned the carb spec temp because he has a '67. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:49 am    Post subject: Re: Do I need to use a thermostat? Reply with quote

sjbartnik wrote:
Tram wrote:

Fuel injection cars have their own slight variant for both Types 1 and 3. Pun intended. Smile


Yes, I only mentioned the carb spec temp because he has a '67. Very Happy


Just pointing it out. Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:11 am    Post subject: Re: Do I need to use a thermostat? Reply with quote

My post a few years back on the same subject (there are many such threads):

Quote:
Yes, most SoCal shops removed them. But it was short-sighted, though also realistic from a business standpoint.

These cars needed periodic maintenance to operate correctly. Linkages can wear, things get bent during other repairs, and of course there is an adjustment. Most owners never did these things, or wanted to pay a shop to do them. VWs were bought to have cheap transportation.

Now if you were a shop at the time, you may have done a mental calculation: If 95% of customers will neglect this maintenance, and perchance the engine develops a problem, do you think they will fess up to their own sins, or will they blame the work YOU did and badmouth your shop? On the other hand, if you take it out, it may shorten the engine life (though not provably so). But you won't get blamed. It also simplifies engine teardown and assembly, saving you labor expenses. The customer won't know better, right?

So if you want to stay in business, you probably took the easy route and removed it. No immediate harm in the warm SoCal climate. Sure, the heat riser will get plugged sooner, and warmups will take a little longer (but a choke adjustment removes most of that symptom). And you save a little labor, pocketing the money. Who cares if 50,000 miles down the road it runs hot because of manifold icing, poor mixture, and carbon buildup?

But now, 30-40 years later, when YOU are the mechanic, does that logic make sense to you? You are not a businessman with ignorant customers, you are the owner/mechanic who seeks reliability and long life, and who does the proper maintenance.


One suggestion for the Type 3 is to file a notch into one end of the operating rod (the one that is within the cast housing, running side to side). This way you have an instant externally-visible indicator of the flap position. Unlike in a Bug, this lets you monitor its operation for sticking or a broken accordion unit.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Do I need to use a thermostat? Reply with quote

KTPhil wrote:
My post a few years back on the same subject (there are many such threads):

Quote:
Yes, most SoCal shops removed them. But it was short-sighted, though also realistic from a business standpoint.

These cars needed periodic maintenance to operate correctly. Linkages can wear, things get bent during other repairs, and of course there is an adjustment. Most owners never did these things, or wanted to pay a shop to do them. VWs were bought to have cheap transportation.

Now if you were a shop at the time, you may have done a mental calculation: If 95% of customers will neglect this maintenance, and perchance the engine develops a problem, do you think they will fess up to their own sins, or will they blame the work YOU did and badmouth your shop? On the other hand, if you take it out, it may shorten the engine life (though not provably so). But you won't get blamed. It also simplifies engine teardown and assembly, saving you labor expenses. The customer won't know better, right?

So if you want to stay in business, you probably took the easy route and removed it. No immediate harm in the warm SoCal climate. Sure, the heat riser will get plugged sooner, and warmups will take a little longer (but a choke adjustment removes most of that symptom). And you save a little labor, pocketing the money. Who cares if 50,000 miles down the road it runs hot because of manifold icing, poor mixture, and carbon buildup?

But now, 30-40 years later, when YOU are the mechanic, does that logic make sense to you? You are not a businessman with ignorant customers, you are the owner/mechanic who seeks reliability and long life, and who does the proper maintenance.


One suggestion for the Type 3 is to file a notch into one end of the operating rod (the one that is within the cast housing, running side to side). This way you have an instant externally-visible indicator of the flap position. Unlike in a Bug, this lets you monitor its operation for sticking or a broken accordion unit.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I am very new to T3. I didn't realize there was no visual of open or closed from the outside. Thanks for the tip. I am going to get under it this weekend and take a look to see if it has a thermostat still.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Do I need to use a thermostat? Reply with quote

A painted line will work also.
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