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FL-Frank
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Joined: August 08, 2015
Posts: 823
Location: Jupiter, Florida
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 Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:24 am Post subject: Oil Pump Question |
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Although new flat cam oil pumps with 26mm gears and 6mm stud holes are readily available, my search for a new oil pump with 21mm gears and 6mm stud holes has been unsuccessful.
I’ve heard that a 21mm geared pump with 8mm stud holes mounted on 6mm studs will work fine... provided it’s covered with a 6mm holed pump cover.
Is this correct?
Any potential issues I should be aware of?
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“Tinker Toy” 1967 Savannah Beige Beetle Sedan...........Mostly Original Survivor
“Fritz” 1964 Gulf Blue Karmann Ghia Coupe...Complete Pan-Off Restoration SOLD |
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Cusser
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Joined: October 02, 2006
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Location: Hot Arizona
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FL-Frank
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Joined: August 08, 2015
Posts: 823
Location: Jupiter, Florida
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:41 am Post subject: Re: Oil Pump Question |
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| Cusser wrote: |
| Ever consider a pump/filter combination? They work on engines with 6mm studs. |
Yes, I have considered the CBMaxi2-1791. But not sure if I would have clearance issues? This is the muffler...
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“Tinker Toy” 1967 Savannah Beige Beetle Sedan...........Mostly Original Survivor
“Fritz” 1964 Gulf Blue Karmann Ghia Coupe...Complete Pan-Off Restoration SOLD |
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FL-Frank
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Joined: August 08, 2015
Posts: 823
Location: Jupiter, Florida
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:51 am Post subject: Re: Oil Pump Question |
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BTW...I just ran across this old thread...sounds like a pump with 8mm holes can in deed be used with 6mm studs and cover.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=386033&highlight=oil+pump
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“Fritz” 1964 Gulf Blue Karmann Ghia Coupe...Complete Pan-Off Restoration SOLD |
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diablosandwich
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bluebus86
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Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:28 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Pump Question |
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| FL-Frank wrote: |
| Cusser wrote: |
| Ever consider a pump/filter combination? They work on engines with 6mm studs. |
Yes, I have considered the CBMaxi2-1791. But not sure if I would have clearance issues? This is the muffler...
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stockstyle muffler work.... BUT some pumps have filter on left, some on right. The filter will interfere with the muffler heater cuffs and or the manifold preheat pipe if the filter as on the same side as those parts on the muffler are on.
There are stockstyle mufflers with them parts (heater cuffs, manifold heat pipe) on the left, and there are mufflers with them parts on the right.
With the correct oriented muffler for the pump filter orientation, stock style muffler can clear the filter. If these muffler parts are on same side as filter is, interference can be an issue. Friend had to change his muffler to other orientation when he installed a filter pump.
Bug On, With Clean Oil!
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Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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FL-Frank
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Joined: August 08, 2015
Posts: 823
Location: Jupiter, Florida
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Pump Question |
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| FL-Frank wrote: |
| Cusser wrote: |
| Ever consider a pump/filter combination? They work on engines with 6mm studs. |
Yes, I have considered the CBMaxi2-1791. But not sure if I would have clearance issues? This is the muffler...
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I called CB Perf earlier today, explained my application specifics, and was told their Max2 would not work with 6mm case studs without modifications, and that they don’t recommend it.
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“Tinker Toy” 1967 Savannah Beige Beetle Sedan...........Mostly Original Survivor
“Fritz” 1964 Gulf Blue Karmann Ghia Coupe...Complete Pan-Off Restoration SOLD |
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FL-Frank
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Joined: August 08, 2015
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Location: Jupiter, Florida
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:48 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Pump Question |
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Thanks for the lead!
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“Fritz” 1964 Gulf Blue Karmann Ghia Coupe...Complete Pan-Off Restoration SOLD |
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Ojai63dbl
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Joined: March 12, 2007
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:08 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Pump Question |
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The 8mm stud oil pump with 6mm cover works on a 1200 engine. I have this on my '63 and '65 VWs that are stiull 40hp. (I have put 60,000 on the 1963 as my DD since last rebuild w/o leaks and excellent oil pressure)
The oil pump is centered by case not studs and the 6mm cover keeps the pressure of nuts equal when you torque down.
Of course, no reason to not use a 6mm oil pump if you have one, but no need to wait if you dont
One last thing to have excellent oil pressure, dont forget to blueprint cover to be sure its flat and check oil pump diameter and gear lash to be sure its in spec before installing |
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FL-Frank
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Location: Jupiter, Florida
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Pump Question |
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| Ojai63dbl wrote: |
The 8mm stud oil pump with 6mm cover works on a 1200 engine. I have this on my '63 and '65 VWs that are stiull 40hp. (I have put 60,000 on the 1963 as my DD since last rebuild w/o leaks and excellent oil pressure)
The oil pump is centered by case not studs and the 6mm cover keeps the pressure of nuts equal when you torque down.
Of course, no reason to not use a 6mm oil pump if you have one, but no need to wait if you dont
One last thing to have excellent oil pressure, dont forget to blueprint cover to be sure its flat and check oil pump diameter and gear lash to be sure its in spec before installing |
Thanks for the advice! I’m curious to hear what you use to seal the pump to case surface and the cover to pump surface? Also, what kind of fasteners do you use to secure the cover to the pump?
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“Fritz” 1964 Gulf Blue Karmann Ghia Coupe...Complete Pan-Off Restoration SOLD |
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Ojai63dbl
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Joined: March 12, 2007
Posts: 452
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:13 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Pump Question |
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Be sure you buy the right pump flat (early) vs. dished (late)
When polishing your goal is to remove scratches from cover and to have zero end play at pump (gasket gives you the neede space)
To polish the cover, you polish on a piece of glass ( I use an old qtr window). It is basically wet sanding in a figure eight motion until all the scratches are removed. Goal is to be sure clearance between gears and cover are tight without gasket.
What grit to start with depends on how deep scratches are but in general its start with a low grit and work up to a high grit (I probably used 180 and worked up to 1000).
You can also surface pump face this way so that the pump body is just touching the gears
When you assemble pack pump with lithium grease (helps priming)
and use paper gaskets. I used Curil K2 (maybe Curil T) on gaskets others use Permatex aviation. On the 6mm it bolts together with a washer and 6mm nut (cant buy the 6mm as a self-sealing nut). Torque to spec.
from aircooled.net (http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Schadek-21mm-Oil-Pump-8mm-Pump-Studs-111-115-107-p/111-115-107akbr.htm)
The pump fits is an interference fit, its tight when case is bolted up. "VW machines the oil pump bore (in the case) to about 2.7559-2.7570inches, and the pump body should measure 2.7570inches. This results in a perfect or SLIGHT interference fit, which is why you need a puller to get it out (if you don't need a puller, you have an undersized pump). |
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bluebus86
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Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:58 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Pump Question |
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| FL-Frank wrote: |
| Ojai63dbl wrote: |
The 8mm stud oil pump with 6mm cover works on a 1200 engine. I have this on my '63 and '65 VWs that are stiull 40hp. (I have put 60,000 on the 1963 as my DD since last rebuild w/o leaks and excellent oil pressure)
The oil pump is centered by case not studs and the 6mm cover keeps the pressure of nuts equal when you torque down.
Of course, no reason to not use a 6mm oil pump if you have one, but no need to wait if you dont
One last thing to have excellent oil pressure, dont forget to blueprint cover to be sure its flat and check oil pump diameter and gear lash to be sure its in spec before installing |
Thanks for the advice! I’m curious to hear what you use to seal the pump to case surface and the cover to pump surface? Also, what kind of fasteners do you use to secure the cover to the pump? |
Some assemble cover with no sealer, gasket only. Note the cover gasket is supposed to be extremely thin, several thousanths of inch maximum, .003" is pretty good. The pump body gasket to engine case is much thicker, do not mix them up! excessive thickness will reduce oil pressure!
sealer if used must not be allowed to get into the ring groove on the pump body, that ring is connected by a slot to the low pressure side of pump, such that leakage will be intercepted by this low pressure, ie suction ring. thus is sealant is used, a very thin small amount is to be used. So thin gasket, dry or with only a little bit of a thin sealer.
Non stock pump covers that are flat should never be used. Stock covers have a ridge or lip on each of the four sides, this serves to stiffen the cover so it wont warp. And yes, they do warp if lip is not present, they can wrap more than the thickness of the gasket! I had a 3/16inch thick steel plate cover. I put a dial indicator in the middle of it and watched the indicator move as the cover was slowly and evenly torqued down to specification, as I approached the final torque, the cover bowed up in the middle, and the indicator reversed travel! The final bow was about .004 inch or so, wiping out all the effort spent lapping it dead flat!
Now never ever use a cover without the lip or ridge on the four sides for stiffening, even if it seems like a solid cover, it will warp without the lip or ridge!
Bug On with a great oil pump!
_________________
Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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FL-Frank
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Joined: August 08, 2015
Posts: 823
Location: Jupiter, Florida
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| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:44 am Post subject: Re: Oil Pump Question |
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Thanks for the advice guys!
After making sure my OG 4 lipped cover’s surface is absolutely flat with no scratches, I will check to make sure both gear hieghts are the same level as pump face, and adjust them if need be.
I’ll probably use Permatex Spray Gasket Sealant on both sides of the gasket between the pump and case. To make sure the ring machined into the suface of the pump on the cover side stays clean and open, I will probably use only the thin gasket with no sealer to mount the cover.
As far as fasteners are concerned, I have 6mm sealing nuts as well as regular 6mm nuts and 6 mm wavy washers. Which type of fasteners can I count on to minimize the chance of leaking? (Either way, I will torque them to the specified 7 ft. Lbs.)
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“Tinker Toy” 1967 Savannah Beige Beetle Sedan...........Mostly Original Survivor
“Fritz” 1964 Gulf Blue Karmann Ghia Coupe...Complete Pan-Off Restoration SOLD |
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bluebus86
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Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
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| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:15 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Pump Question |
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| FL-Frank wrote: |
Thanks for the advice guys!
After making sure my OG 4 lipped cover’s surface is absolutely flat with no scratches, I will check to make sure both gear hieghts are the same level as pump face, and adjust them if need be.
I’ll probably use Permatex Spray Gasket Sealant on both sides of the gasket between the pump and case. To make sure the ring machined into the suface of the pump on the cover side stays clean and open, I will probably use only the thin gasket with no sealer to mount the cover.
As far as fasteners are concerned, I have 6mm sealing nuts as well as regular 6mm nuts and 6 mm wavy washers. Which type of fasteners can I count on to minimize the chance of leaking? (Either way, I will torque them to the specified 7 ft. Lbs.) |
The seal nuts will work best with no washer. A washer under the seal is ok on the outer side, but the flip side of that washer is a steel to steel joint, ie washer to pump cover. That is were a leak can happen, so use the special seal nut so the plastic seal surface is pressing directly on the pump cover, and for best results I like to use a tad bit of form a gasket liquid brush on sealer on the stud and nut just because I can, but it is probably not needed.
Bug On!
_________________
Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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