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SatireChuck Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2009 Posts: 63 Location: North Arkansas
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:06 am Post subject: Structural Reinforcement options for Bay Window buses? |
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Hey gang,
So my 1971 VW Bus doesnt’s have the frame reinforcement that came on the later years. I have kids. I’d like to find out what options there are for Reinforcing the front end. Yes I know it’s difficult. Yes I know I could buy a later bus. I get it. I’m asking how to do this to my 71, please.
Could I please get your advice and recommendations for reinforcing the front end.
Thank you kindly!
-Chuck
_________________ ***
“All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” -Gandalf
———
Brother Chuck’s VW’s:
1968 VW Beetle
1971 VW Bus (Currently under restoration) |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16971 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:16 am Post subject: Re: Structural Reinforcement options for Bay Window buses? |
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You'll need to install a big ugly roo bar from down under
_________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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skills@eurocarsplus Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007 Posts: 16883 Location: sticksville, ct.
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:29 am Post subject: Re: Structural Reinforcement options for Bay Window buses? |
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Get a late bus....doing any hacky frame connectors will just cause more issues I think _________________
gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
Jake Raby wrote: |
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
Brian wrote: |
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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RalphWiggam Samba Member
Joined: February 02, 2018 Posts: 906 Location: SouthEast
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:42 am Post subject: Re: Structural Reinforcement options for Bay Window buses? |
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I really dont think it would be very difficult to weld in some nice steel tubing in the front frame area of an early bus. You probably wont be able to perfectly triangulate anything, but you could definitely beef it up. |
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richparker Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2011 Posts: 6983 Location: Durango, CO
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:09 am Post subject: Re: Structural Reinforcement options for Bay Window buses? |
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are you a structural engineer in the automotive industry? It isn't just about adding strength - it is about where to fold and bend metal and panels to absorb energy. Your seats are low back too. You need to replace those and the pedestals they sit on which are part of the wheel wells. The back on a late bus is welded together - if you do that on an early bus then getting the upright motor out would be very hard. It is really easier to just sell the bus and buy a 1973 or later if you are that concerned about it. Really. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16971 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:25 am Post subject: Re: Structural Reinforcement options for Bay Window buses? |
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Much easier to install air bags _________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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jtauxe Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2004 Posts: 5780 Location: Los Alamos, New Mexico
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:39 am Post subject: Re: Structural Reinforcement options for Bay Window buses? |
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Nice image of the revised structural components, OP.
Those roo bars are just for show. They will have little positive effect in a crash, and could even be dangerous. You could get impaled by steel tubing coming through the nose.
I had a 1969 bus for some time, and as an engineer have thought a lot about how to beef up the front end. I have a wrecked 1974 here that really shows how that triangulated bracing works. It really does. That said, I agree with others here that attempts to modify your 1970 are not going to work. If you want to put a premium on safety, get a later bus, or better yet, get a modern minivan for hauling your kids around. That's what I did. _________________ John
"Travelling in a fried-out Kombi, on a hippie trail, head full of zombie..." - Colin Hay and Ron Strykert
http://vw.tauxe.net
1969 Transporter, 1971 Westfalia, 1976, 1977, 1976, 1977, 1971, 1973, 1977 Westfalias,
1979 Champagne Sunroof, 1974 Westfalia Automatic, 1979 Transporter, 1972 Sportsmobile, 1973 Transporter Wild Westerner, 1974 Westfalia parts bus, 1975 Mexican single cab *FOR SALE*, 1978 Irish 4-door double cab RHD
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bvolks Samba Member
Joined: April 26, 2004 Posts: 845 Location: New Brunswick, Canada
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:56 am Post subject: Re: Structural Reinforcement options for Bay Window buses? |
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Shouldn't a '71 already have the "Y" shaped front frame? Both my late '70 Westfalia and my '71 Doublecab do. _________________ 1985 Diesel Jetta Coupe (temporarily retired at
756,000 km)
1971 Doublecab project
1995 Golf CL
1974 Beetle
1978 Westfalia |
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sjbartnik Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011 Posts: 5998 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:03 am Post subject: Re: Structural Reinforcement options for Bay Window buses? |
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SGKent wrote: |
are you a structural engineer in the automotive industry? It isn't just about adding strength - it is about where to fold and bend metal and panels to absorb energy. |
Exactly. This is an area of great engineering complexity. If you don't understand all the variables involved in the dynamics of chanelling crash energy where it will do the least harm and dissipate the most energy, you stand a good chance of making things more dangerous. _________________ 1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12728 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:41 am Post subject: Re: Structural Reinforcement options for Bay Window buses? |
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bvolks wrote: |
Shouldn't a '71 already have the "Y" shaped front frame? Both my late '70 Westfalia and my '71 Doublecab do. |
Yes! The triangulated brace debuted in 1970. The additional 5mph bumper reenforcement began in 1973.
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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SatireChuck Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2009 Posts: 63 Location: North Arkansas
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:40 am Post subject: Re: Structural Reinforcement options for Bay Window buses? |
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The makers of those after market bumpers won’t/can’t supply any photos of their product after a wreck. I searched like crazy this morning for them. I wanted to see how their bumpers held up in an accident.
After emailing them, let’s just say I won’t be buying any products from them. They don’t want to share info or photos of their bumpers after an accident, which really was strange. I’m a big fan of transparency for customers when it comes to safety products.
I got the “use google” and “it’s good enough for other customers, why not you” response.
Looks like I’ll be shopping for a 1979 Bus soon!
-Brother Chuck
aeromech wrote: |
You'll need to install a big ugly roo bar from down under
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_________________ ***
“All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” -Gandalf
———
Brother Chuck’s VW’s:
1968 VW Beetle
1971 VW Bus (Currently under restoration)
Last edited by SatireChuck on Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:46 am Post subject: Re: Structural Reinforcement options for Bay Window buses? |
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SatireChuck wrote: |
The makers of those after market bumpers won’t/can’t supply any photos of their product after a wreck. I searched like crazy this morning for them. I wanted to see how their bumpers held up in an accident.
After emailing them, let’s just say I won’t be buying any products from them. They don’t want to share info or photos of their numbers after an accident, which really was strange. I’m a big fan of transparency for customers when it comes to safety products.
I got the “use google” and “it’s good enough for other customers, why not you” response.
Looks like I’ll be shopping for a 1979 Bus soon!
-Brother Chuck
aeromech wrote: |
You'll need to install a big ugly roo bar from down under
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1979 has many one year only parts in the exhaust and FI areas. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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SatireChuck Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2009 Posts: 63 Location: North Arkansas
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:49 am Post subject: Re: Structural Reinforcement options for Bay Window buses? |
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Thank you for the advice. I’m glad I asked! I’ll fix up my 71 and plan on buying a late 70’s model for my daily driver. That will make me feel better about safety for the kids. And I’ll have them ride in the back and never the front. Just in case.
SGKent wrote: |
are you a structural engineer in the automotive industry? It isn't just about adding strength - it is about where to fold and bend metal and panels to absorb energy. Your seats are low back too. You need to replace those and the pedestals they sit on which are part of the wheel wells. The back on a late bus is welded together - if you do that on an early bus then getting the upright motor out would be very hard. It is really easier to just sell the bus and buy a 1973 or later if you are that concerned about it. Really. |
_________________ ***
“All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” -Gandalf
———
Brother Chuck’s VW’s:
1968 VW Beetle
1971 VW Bus (Currently under restoration) |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50352
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: Structural Reinforcement options for Bay Window buses? |
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Really all you should need to do is find the reinforcement that fits across the nose behind the front bumper and install it. You would then need to come up with a custom bumper to fit over the reinforcement that would look like the original for your year. You would likely want to upgrade the seat belts as well. |
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Brian Samba Moderator
Joined: May 28, 2012 Posts: 8340 Location: Oceanside
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:49 pm Post subject: Re: Structural Reinforcement options for Bay Window buses? |
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My thoughts long ago was to do a full roll cage. You could do longer travel shocks and all that fun stuff.
Jut don't drive like a loon and be cautious to other drivers. You can reinforce the frame an amount, but nothing will really save you from the soccer mom turned around smacking the youngest, whose in the 3rd row, while hurling down the center line going 85 mph in a big ass "mini" van. _________________ Wash your hands
'69 Bug
'68 Baja Truck
'71 Bug
'68 Camper
Only losers litter |
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WestyPop Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2005 Posts: 1732 Location: SoCal
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Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:29 am Post subject: Re: Structural Reinforcement options for Bay Window buses? |
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Wildthings wrote: |
Really all you should need to do is find the reinforcement that fits across the nose behind the front bumper and install it. You would then need to come up with a custom bumper to fit over the reinforcement that would look like the original for your year. You would likely want to upgrade the seat belts as well. |
As far as a "custom bumper", it would appear that some of the later Brazilian bays had the lower front reinforcement panel, as well as bumpers that kept the look of the early bays.
Is there an issue with transferring the entire '73+ up front undercarriage, ie. "frame" (back to the flat sections/1st crossmember?), beam axle, suspension, steering, front reinforcement panel & all from a later baywindow to a '68/'69 bay? (maybe even the front floor, seat platforms/wheelwells, too?) Aside from being a major effort... any problems forseen? _________________ Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
______________________________________
J.R.
68 Westy
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Mispeld Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2018 Posts: 355 Location: Jacksonville - Coastal NC
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Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:56 am Post subject: Re: Structural Reinforcement options for Bay Window buses? |
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I get it, safety is important. But old vehicles are like motorcycles; you assume a risk with them.
Maybe add ABS, traction control, air bags, blind spot alerts, self parking features etc.
Car companies spend millions and millions of dollars developing a vehicle. Funny how it takes an owner and $100 bucks of modifications to undo it all. _________________ Tom
1977 Westy. 2.0 Fuel Injected. |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50352
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Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:56 am Post subject: Re: Structural Reinforcement options for Bay Window buses? |
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WestyPop wrote: |
Wildthings wrote: |
Really all you should need to do is find the reinforcement that fits across the nose behind the front bumper and install it. You would then need to come up with a custom bumper to fit over the reinforcement that would look like the original for your year. You would likely want to upgrade the seat belts as well. |
As far as a "custom bumper", it would appear that some of the later Brazilian bays had the lower front reinforcement panel, as well as bumpers that kept the look of the early bays.
Is there an issue with transferring the entire '73+ up front undercarriage, ie. "frame" (back to the flat sections/1st crossmember?), beam axle, suspension, steering, front reinforcement panel & all from a later baywindow to a '68/'69 bay? (maybe even the front floor, seat platforms/wheelwells, too?) Aside from being a major effort... any problems forseen? |
That would be quite the challenge to do well and have a good chance of never being completed. Just buy a later bus and move the lights to make it look like an earlier bus. |
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WestyPop Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2005 Posts: 1732 Location: SoCal
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Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:43 pm Post subject: Re: Structural Reinforcement options for Bay Window buses? |
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Wildthings wrote: |
WestyPop wrote: |
Wildthings wrote: |
Really all you should need to do is find the reinforcement that fits across the nose behind the front bumper and install it. You would then need to come up with a custom bumper to fit over the reinforcement that would look like the original for your year. You would likely want to upgrade the seat belts as well. |
As far as a "custom bumper", it would appear that some of the later Brazilian bays had the lower front reinforcement panel, as well as bumpers that kept the look of the early bays.
Is there an issue with transferring the entire '73+ up front undercarriage, ie. "frame" (back to the flat sections/1st crossmember?), beam axle, suspension, steering, front reinforcement panel & all from a later baywindow to a '68/'69 bay? (maybe even the front floor, seat platforms/wheelwells, too?) Aside from being a major effort... any problems forseen? |
That would be quite the challenge to do well and have a good chance of never being completed. Just buy a later bus and move the lights to make it look like an earlier bus. |
Sure, for 'looks' only, "... quite the challenge to do well and... " seems true! But, functionally, such transplant surgery appears very do-able, IF, rearward of the 'cab' & front suspension/steering, the spacing of the "frame rails" is the same on the early & late bays. Anyone know if those measurements are the same? _________________ Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
______________________________________
J.R.
68 Westy
(+ others) |
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