Complete shop manuals

[titan3c]

Question: I know of a retired person who was a mechanic at a VW dealer back in the 70's, and I know he use to have a complete set of manuals for the Type 4. I plan to approach him and inquire about the manuals. So---what would be a reasonable price to offer. He may just give them to me, but it more than likely will be negotiable situation. Give me some advice. Bob

[raygreenwood]

This is a tough question.

If this were bus, type 3 or beetle.......the drive to acquire to them.... among collectors would drive the price way up......and many owners would buy them for collectors value even if they do not NEED the information inside of them.

With the type 4 car group.....most of us....would primarily want them for the information contained in them.
But....as you can see from the classifieds......and what some people charge for type 4 car parts.....prices that range from reasonable to outrageous......depending on who has type 4 shop books and what they think of the rarity and potential to make $$$.....they could get stupid expensive.

About 27 years ago....when I lived in Atlanta.....there was a very fine restoration shop Northwest of Atlanta just a little south and east of Dobbins air force base.

They had TONS of NOS parts....entire body panels, display cases full of chrome and electronic and detail rarities. More than once I saw cars that ranged from the only other yellow two door 411 with four speed around, several old lotus, a jaguar D-type......many cars...in for service. They had a two door 411 complete...rusting into the ground out back.

They would sell me no parts from it. Only the complete car. They did not comprehend....that with the floor boards literally on the ground and rusted through front and back.....that the car was done for. There were no takers.....for all the years I lived there and for many after. It sat there and rusted into scrap.
I saw it advertized here.....years back.....and no takers. I am sure it was scrapped.

In that same "collectors" vein......

In their display case was a blue backed 411/412 factory parts manual. I asked how much. They said not for sale......which was BS because people bought items out of the case all the time.....and in a shop like that everything is for sale. They were waiting for me to suggest a huge price.....like all of their wealthy customers......even though I drove up in my two door 412....and I made it clear I really just needed the information in it.

I offered them $150 .....to simply COPY it at kinkos.....and they could hold onto my credit card while I got it done.....and I would give them a copy on a stack of floppy discs that they could sell.
No dice.

I have a copy of that parts book now....GIVEN to me.....nicely by a gentleman in England. I am close to posting it here for all.

I would say.....for the knowledge.....a set of the factory books may be worth to me.....about what ai tried to pay just for the parts book. About $150.

If they want more....turn them down. You have too many important things that need to be done for $150 on a 411 or 412......to be wasting it on a book. I can and will supply the vast majority of info the book could have.....for free.

If they ask for $200 max.....and you need help....please ask us here. I would put some $ forward to you....to help purchase the books....which you could keep......and would only ask that you let me photograph the contents and I would give you back the books and a digital copy. Ray

[KTPhil]

Maybe some sort of Samba GoFundMe effort to give him a reasonable price, scan and make digital copies available to contributors? I'd probably kick something in, even though I don't own a T4! They are fascinating cars and I am sick that way.

[raygreenwood]

[EverettB]

What books are they? Shop manual(s) only? How many?

Here's a photo from an old ad for what the seller described as a Type 4 Parts book and Shop Manual:

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[raygreenwood]

[titan3c]

Thanks for these comments. I haven't contacted this man yet. He lives only about five miles from me, and is a avid air cooled vw fan. I remember a conversation with him several years ago when he was making an issue on what a mistake the Type 4 was, and Volkswagen should have stayed with what was their proven talent. He proceeded to tell me about some of the shop problems they had with the Type 4. He was interesting to talk to, but was obviously not a Type 4 enthusiast.

I'll keep you posted on what happens. Bob

[raygreenwood]

I heard this from a lot of dealer techs over the years. Especially early on in the mid 80s....as I continued to speak with a few of them......it became clear that I actually had more experience as an owner/driver who had to do all of my own work....on type 4 vehicles......than ANY of the dealer mechanics I have ever met.

Further conversations yielded three primary reasons for the type of opinion you noted with the owners of these manuals.

1. And this is only one of the background/minor parts of the issue.....pure opinion based on long time employees being used to and set in their ways and being biased to a range of car models that all largely the same technology.....bug, bus, type 3, thing, ghia.....all employed simple type 1 based engines with carbs, pans, torsion bars.
You started to get the gist that these opinions.......were biased ...when these same mechanics would tell you that injection sucked and that next to the type 4 cars....the inje ted type 3s were the next most problematic.....yet they were still simpler torsion bar and pan vehicles.

2. Some of the above issues were also based on the fact.....that VWs policies and training ...were poor.....for the more advanced vehciles. Not one dealer I have ever seen....actually worked on, adjusted or repaired D-jet. All they were trained to do....and allowed to do by policy.....was to connect the diagnostic unit...which we now know was not capable of analyzing "through" a faulty harness, or capable of isolating poor connections, or capable of properly adjusting TVS or adjusting MPS or adjusting for vacuum changes as an engine wears with age.

The policy was to test and swap in new parts. Without the knowledge or ability to actually....carefully adjust items like the MPS or TVS.....and coupled with the wear issues in the harness.....it made making type 4 cars ....and many of the type 3s.....a crap shoot to keep running well.

Just like the early to mid 80s GM cars with their heinous fuel injection components....it made many of the type 4 cars....."shop queens". They spent huge amounts of time in the shop for driveability issues. With short warranties in those days....it made these cars expensive as they aged.

Its why in the mid to late 80s....for a,while until they started getting scrapped....the easkest place to find a really nice type 4 car.....was sitting in the back lot of private mechanic shops....usually taken in trade or sold for cheap for driveability issues......or sitting in the back yards under tarps of people who owned and loved these cars.....but they just did not have the money to keep going to the dealer.

So was some of this the car?....sure...we know that. But....so did VW. They simply just did not prepare their mechanics for what needed to be done.....what would wear out and when....and gave them no training whatsoever in how to work on items like the heater and fuel injections or even some of the finer points of alignment.

What the mechanics I met were ACTUALLY bitching about.....was not that the type 4 cars were any more or less horrendous than buses, beetles and type 3s.....but that they were totally different and had different problems. They were used to all of the problems the other air cooled models had and in their mind they were now normal and could be worked around.

3. To add to this.....they did not get much practice on type 4. They did not make that many comparatively.....total run world wide was a little north of 300,000.....and only sold them in the US from August of 1971 to August or November of 1974. .....with a lot of changes through that short range. And....99.9% of anything they would see was automatic and injection only. Ray

[titan3c]

I finally made contact with the retired mechanic, and he doesn't have type 4 manuals.

[KTPhil]

Bummer... so the quest for the Mythical Manuals continues...

[raygreenwood]

[mr. lang]

[ALLWAGONS]

Really, type 4 books are that scarce?
I have an NOS parts manual
an NOS shop manual Vol 1 & 2
a VW 1975 parts book
a Clymer
an Inter Europe
a Haynes
and a Drake Manual from when I owned my '72 411. May part with all of them.

Martin
allwagons
_________________
I'd be UNSTOPPABLE if not for Law Enforcement and PHYSICS.

I recycle old cars and parts, other than when I rot, that's as Green as I am going to get.

Thanks to my Tesla driving neighbors, I feel more relaxed driving my SUBURBAN and old VW's.

NON INFLUENCER APPROVED

[raygreenwood]

[ALLWAGONS]

Here they are in their NOS Glory

Funny how the workshop manuals read "Provisional"
_________________
I'd be UNSTOPPABLE if not for Law Enforcement and PHYSICS.

I recycle old cars and parts, other than when I rot, that's as Green as I am going to get.

Thanks to my Tesla driving neighbors, I feel more relaxed driving my SUBURBAN and old VW's.

NON INFLUENCER APPROVED

[raygreenwood]

What does provisional mean?
Ray

[ALLWAGONS]

I was hpoing you would enlighten me.
_________________
I'd be UNSTOPPABLE if not for Law Enforcement and PHYSICS.

I recycle old cars and parts, other than when I rot, that's as Green as I am going to get.

Thanks to my Tesla driving neighbors, I feel more relaxed driving my SUBURBAN and old VW's.

NON INFLUENCER APPROVED

[glutamodo]