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Clutch Issue
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tomsbuggered
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 4:51 pm    Post subject: Clutch Issue Reply with quote

I pulled the motor from my 1959 bug yesterday originally to find what I thought was a dropped engine lid bolt; but search turned no results. What I did find was the retaining ring on clutch seemed to be loose; and possible cause of the noise from the engine ?

The engine is just rebuilt and original to the car, the transaxle is rebuilt and possibly from a year or two later. Not sure where to look on transmission to determine the year.

Curious as to how to align the retaining ring when coupling the engine to the transaxle; I use the aligmnment tools to install clutch and pressure assembly. The retaining ring is not fastened to the pressure plate and would seem to drop down when coupled to the bell housing.

Input welcomed.


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61SNRF
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 6:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch Issue Reply with quote

Depending on who made that pressure plate, in general the center ring should be snugly fixed to the center of the diaphragm by spring tension fit. You may be able to wiggle one a little bit, but it should not be loose enough to wobble like yours would appear to.
Might well cause a noise too depending on how much clutch adjustment free play you set it up with.

Another critical fact is it's face should be parallel to the cover, and there are no adjustments that can be made by the end user.

You can't buy the parts separate, given the circumstances the most practical way to address is with a new clutch cover.

AFA trans ID, pictures are always the best way Wink

In the meantime, can you say if it's a "split case", as in two part case with a seam down the middle like the engine...
...or is it a "tunnel trans" or a one piece case with bolt on side covers?

Either way, same 180mm clutches fits them both spanning years ~'53 to '66, so do some shopping and research to find a clutch cover or kit to suit your needs.
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Last edited by 61SNRF on Sat Jan 30, 2016 6:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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krs.br79
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 6:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch Issue Reply with quote

I'm sure someone will come along and have the perfect answer for you.

But from my experience, if that's the pressure plate collar it is way too loose. When I installed mine, there was no play whatsoever on that collar. It looks like you could be missing the spiral ring in the back, or it's not fully seated.

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Pressure-Plate-Collar-Early-Style-X-Shaft-p/pressure-plate-collar.htm

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=148307

That would definitely cause some noise.
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tomsbuggered
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 10:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch Issue Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies.

I will get a picture of the transaxle tomorrow to post.

It seems logical that the throwout bearing would need to move parallel to the clutch face, but I think mine is angled. I'll post tomorrow.

Solution seems to be find correct clutch to match transmission. Will measure parts but pretty sure I'm looking for 180 mm clutch.

Tom


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:25 am    Post subject: Re: Clutch Issue Reply with quote

Yes, you need to get a new pressure plate.

If the throwout bearing and clutch disc are OK, re-use those. "Tad" of grease on the transmission shaft splines, and tad on the starter teeth. Grease the clutch cable threads while the engine is out too. You likely will need to re-adjust the clutch cable with this job, you may want to "unscrew" the nuts or wingnuts a little in advance (along with the greasing) to help with that.
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tomsbuggered
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch Issue Reply with quote

Here is the throwout bearing in the transaxle; so loks like I need to get same clutch and pressure plate(180 mm). Do I need any spacer or guide tube, I think not ?

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tomsbuggered
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch Issue Reply with quote

Is their a heavier duty clutch available for 180 mm ? I bought the best there was to offer from CiP1 but this was the result.

May contact them but don't see any substitute on their website.

Tom
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tomsbuggered
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:58 am    Post subject: Re: Clutch Issue Reply with quote

Former clutch:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


TOB installed:


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The clutch that is giving me the problem with the aligment collar on the pressure plate would appear to be Sachs; not sure why it failed or could it be "repaired with new collar ?

Also read through the links, which were very helpfull, thanks.

Tom
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch Issue Reply with quote

Your throwout bearing and clutch fork are the early style. Your clutch pressure plate looks like it has the early style PP Collar, but it does not look to be secured very well at all.

I still think if you were to swap out the center collar for one that secures correctly, you could be fine. You don't need to buy a new PP just to get a tighter center collar design.

This was the one I used.

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Pressure-Plate-Collar-Early-Style-X-Shaft-p/pressure-plate-collar.htm

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But then you would be "fixing" a brand new part, which is that the right thing to do anyways? Not sure what Cip1 would say.

This is a Bus PP, which is advertised as having a higher clamping pressure, but higher over what? Not sure.

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/180mm-Clutch-Cover-Pressure-Plate-211-141-025D-p/211-141-025d.htm


Last edited by krs.br79 on Mon Feb 01, 2016 1:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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tomsbuggered
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 1:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch Issue Reply with quote

Thank you for the input, I have considered either "pressing" the collar to the pressure plate; or buying retaining collar as you suggest. Off to work for 10 days, so I have time to deliberate.

Thanks Tom
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch Issue Reply with quote

Contacted CiP1 they are going to contact the manufacturer to replace the clutch plate which is very fair if it happens.

Looking forward to get engine back in, but can now adjust the fan/thermostat linkage while engine is out.

Tom
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:45 am    Post subject: Re: Clutch Issue Reply with quote

It has been suggested by some to "wire" the pressure plate retaining clips to the mounting arms of the throwout assembly.
Any pictures of how this looks, one continuous wire through both clip ends or individually ?

Tom
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 5:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch Issue Reply with quote

Correct install of throw out bearing to clutch cross shaft ? The manual shows the clips to hold the throw out bearing installed vertically (90 degrees) to shaft. Do I have it right ?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch Issue Reply with quote

Looking at your somewhat blurry, straight-on pic, I'd say it looks like you have the clips on correctly. The safety wire people have alluded to would be two pieces, one for each clip. You'll run the wire through the wound loop of the clip and around the arm of the clutch fork, then twist the two ends of the wire together. Here's a pic nicked from the gallery to give you somewhat of an idea how it works:
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tomsbuggered
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch Issue Reply with quote

Thanks Mukluk; will use lashing wire to secure TOB before I re-install the engine.

Tom
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch Issue Reply with quote

Expect refurbished clutch to be shipped Mar 15th. I worked on installing thermostat and throttle ring today. Adjusted and waiting for clutch before installing engine. Looking forward to running engine again.

Tom
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:34 am    Post subject: Re: Clutch Issue Reply with quote

The collar is too loose I had this exact same problem. It is due to poor quality control on manufacture side. The retaining ring that keeps the collar to the pressure plate is not thick enough. I remedied this by adding a pinion gear shim underneath it.
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Next time I see this I would cut the retainig ring with a pair of wire cutters instead taking a chunk out of it like I did.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch Issue resolved Reply with quote

So far the clutch plate is holding up. After some feet dragging the manufacturer replaced the clutch plate at no charge. I've put on 900+ miles on it since and with luck the issue is resolved.
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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 9:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch Issue Reply with quote

Well I'm back to square one with this clutch. I pulled the engine two days ago and have the same issue with the collar being loose from the clutch fingers. I replaced a leaking rear seal, and went to install the clutch, but the collar that fastens to the "fingers" on the pressure plate is loose again. Will need to replace the clutch, is there a better source that will fit my 180 mm flywheel and eliminate the problem for good. It is a Sachs manufatured clutch. Anyone?
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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 10:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch Issue Reply with quote

Two thoughts come to mind: either pick up a good condition original style pressure plate (three arm type), or swap over to the late style TOB with guide sleeve so you can pitch the troublesome ring.
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