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Najemnikarmy
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Joined: August 08, 2018
Posts: 33
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 Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:06 pm Post subject: 73 412 Type 4- Fuel injection problem |
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I got gas flowing from the tank into the fuel injectors but the injectors aren’t pumping the gas.
Where does the connection go because I can’t seem to trace it
Is there a relay or fuse for them and the location of it |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:10 am Post subject: Re: 73 412 Type 4- Fuel injection problem |
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| Najemnikarmy wrote: |
I got gas flowing from the tank into the fuel injectors but the injectors aren’t pumping the gas.
Where does the connection go because I can’t seem to trace it
Is there a relay or fuse for them and the location of it |
Hello and welcome!
Slow down just a bit. Is this car new to you? Have you ever had it running yet? If so.....what items have you worked on? What books if any...on the car....do you have?
A couple of items. What month was your car made in? I am asking because we need to know if its a true 1973 with a 1.7L and D-jet injection or a late 1973 .....which is actually a 1974 with a 1.8L and L-jet injection.
Assuming it is a 1973 with a 1.7L with D-jet injection......some qualifications that must be met first.
1. The fuel system pressure needs to be 28 psi. It needs to be stable.....and for th moment it should never be over 30 psi. Fuel pressure of 28 psi is factory correct.....but you can use up to 2 psi higher under certain conditions.
2. There must be 0 vacuum leaks of any kind. All hoses most be in place, no cracks and should be clamped. There are a handful of areas that can still have vacuum leaks and not be easily seen.
These are the PCV valve in the oil breather, the o-rings at the injector tips, the o-ring between the TB and center manifold, the auxiliary air regulator valve and the diaphragm inside of the manifold pressure sensor to start with.
3. Every single wire and plug MUST be connnected properly. Cracked wires are common and must be prepared. The wiring connectors inside of the plugs have problems with age. The correct thing to do is to one by one remove them from each ppug and clean them and tighten the rolled edges with small pliers so they fit the male pin tightly.
4. The EFI system relay must have a minimun of 10 volts to operatd. If your battery is low.....it may not run and the lower the voltage the richer it will run.
All of that said.....if everything is in good order......the two items that will prevent injectors from firing are.....the three pin plug that connects to the side of the distributor. That connects to a trigger contact plate that actually fires the injectors. This plug above all others...should have the contacts removed and cleaned and tightened. Its connections must be perfect.
The best way to do this.....is to leave the distributor clamp locked.....and remove the single nut that bolts the distributor clamp to the engine case.....so you can easily remove the distributor and put it back without changing your ignition timing.
Pull the distributor out...remove the two screws that hold the trigger plate inside. Remove the trigger plate and clean it with circuit cleaner. Then drag a sliver of brown paper bag between each pair of contacts about 10 times each to polish them. DO NOT USE SANDPAPER OR ABRASIVES HERE!
With a Q-tip and circuit cleaner, remove old grease from the two rubbing blocks of the trigger plate and the cam surface inside the distributor. Put a small amount of distributor grease or SuperLube brand grease ....on the cam and rubbing blocks. You can buy that grease at Harbor Freight or NAPA or some other FLAPS.
Check the resistance of each trigger set by connecting your volt meter between the center pin in the plug and each side pin alternately. Both sides should be less than 2.2 ohms and they should not be any farther off than 0.2 ohms to each other. The lower the resistance the better.
After you put the trigger points back in.....check the ground wire bundle under the center manifold on the case center line. There are three bundles of wires on a three prong connector. These are the injector ground wires. If they are not clean and tight.....you may have no injection.
Ray |
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Najemnikarmy
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Joined: August 08, 2018
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:46 pm Post subject: Re: 73 412 Type 4- Fuel injection problem |
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| Hey, I’m the guy you helped replace the fuel pump. I just started a new thread for a new problem. Would a picture of the engine help? |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: 73 412 Type 4- Fuel injection problem |
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| Najemnikarmy wrote: |
| Hey, I’m the guy you helped replace the fuel pump. I just started a new thread for a new problem. Would a picture of the engine help? |
Thought so!......yes.....some pictures would help. But you need to make sure of the basics on D-jet.
It,will not run "partially" just to get you going like a carb will. Everything has to work and be correctly connected. No vacuum leaks allowed. Ray |
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Najemnikarmy
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Joined: August 08, 2018
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:52 pm Post subject: Re: 73 412 Type 4- Fuel injection problem |
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| Yeah the engine runs amazing I used a whole can of carb starter and it ran for a minute till the fluid ran out. I believe it’s a d-jet. I’ll upload a pic in a little. |
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Bakerboy77bus
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Joined: August 26, 2018
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:56 pm Post subject: Re: 73 412 Type 4- Fuel injection problem |
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| Anyone know why there are 5 wires attached to coil if so can you list them so I can process of elimination |
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Najemnikarmy
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Joined: August 08, 2018
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:19 pm Post subject: Re: 73 412 Type 4- Fuel injection problem |
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The engine:
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Najemnikarmy
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Joined: August 08, 2018
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:22 pm Post subject: Re: 73 412 Type 4- Fuel injection problem |
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The outside:
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Najemnikarmy
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Joined: August 08, 2018
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:03 pm Post subject: Re: 73 412 Type 4- Fuel injection problem |
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I can see I’m missing two relays. Would one be the fuel injection relay?
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:04 pm Post subject: Re: 73 412 Type 4- Fuel injection problem |
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Lots of problems.
Every single hose is SHOT on your engine. You have major vacuum leaks at the intake runner boots, the large 12mm red hoss going to the oil breather at the rubber elbow, and yes that cracked ofcskinny vacuum line is a major vacuum leak to.
You have enough vacuum leaks alone that it will be so rich on starting that it may never start. Unlike a carburetor....where vacuum leaks cause lean running.....on D-jet vacuum leaks are read by the MPS....that part in your 2nd picture......as throttle open...so the system adds fuel.
Also GET RID OF THAT RED FUEL LINE. That is heater hose. Not rated for gasoline or pressure. Also.....you have a hose clamp loose on the outlet side of the cold start valve next to the distributor.
Also....get rid of that fuel filter near the number 1 injector. First....its not pressure rated...2nd....never put a fuel filter in the engine compartment.....3rd.....never put a fuel filter upstream of the pump in D-jet. It goes between the tank and pump.
You are at a HUGE risk of fire.
Also take a picture of the other side..left side.....of the distributor. There MUST be a three wire plug....plugged into the side of the distributor. That is the trigger plate that triggers the injectors.
If its not plugged in....no start. If the trigger plate is missing from that distributor.....meaning if it does not have one.....then you have the wrong distributor.....and it will NEVER run.
As for nice things......your distributor has the adjustable advance unit....arm #917.....only used on some 411/412 and Porsche 914. Ray |
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Najemnikarmy
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Joined: August 08, 2018
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:32 pm Post subject: Re: 73 412 Type 4- Fuel injection problem |
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That’s some great news. I wonder how the previous owner had it running.
You referring to this?
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 4:25 pm Post subject: Re: 73 412 Type 4- Fuel injection problem |
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Yep! Thats it!. So.....look and feel right under the center intake manidold just,forward of the distributor. There are six wires hooked to one 3 prong connector plug. The connections on those wires must be perfect....tight...clean ....or no injection.
Same with that plug on the distributor. Also its very common that when sitting still for long periods....the trigger points get corrosion or the grease sticks up. Remove the single nut hold the distributor to the engine case.....pull the distributor out of the engine....pull those triggers out...show us what they look like....and clean them like ai noted earlier....clean the contacts on the plug.....grease the rubbing blocks...check thejr operation with a volt meter and them reinstall them and put the distributor back in.
Ray |
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Najemnikarmy
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Joined: August 08, 2018
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:01 pm Post subject: Re: 73 412 Type 4- Fuel injection problem |
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Yeah I found the ground wires for the fuel injectors, they where covered with dirt and hair and I cleaned them out. I took the distributor apart and cleaned it up and added new grease. It’s to dark to continue so I’ll take care of that tomorrow morning and update you.
1. So the engine cranks but doesn’t start unless I manually pour gasoline into the carb and instantly fires up and starts running. I can even push the pedal all the way to the floor and max on the RPM. Is it because I bypass the fuel injection system and vacuum tubing?
2. In the picture of the relays and fuses, I’m missing two fuses what are they?
Thanks. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:22 pm Post subject: Re: 73 412 Type 4- Fuel injection problem |
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| Najemnikarmy wrote: |
Yeah I found the ground wires for the fuel injectors, they where covered with dirt and hair and I cleaned them out. I took the distributor apart and cleaned it up and added new grease. It’s to dark to continue so I’ll take care of that tomorrow morning and update you.
1. So the engine cranks but doesn’t start unless I manually pour gasoline into the carb and instantly fires up and starts running. I can even push the pedal all the way to the floor and max on the RPM. Is it because I bypass the fuel injection system and vacuum tubing?
2. In the picture of the relays and fuses, I’m missing two fuses what are they?
Thanks. |
No....nothing bypasses the fuel injection. Pouring gas into the "rhrottle body".....it's not a carb.....is where your fuel is coming from. The ignition is supplying spark and the throttle body is supplying air. It will run until you use up the gas.
Make sure you have power to the fuel system relay on top of the electronic control unit under the right hand armrest in the back seat.
None of the relays on the fuse panel are for the fuel injection. Those are tuen signal, high beam and door buzzer or defroster.
The two relays for fuel injection are the fuel pump relay under the dash down by the brake pedal and an identical relay mounted to the top of the ECU under the rught rear arnreat in the back seat.
You need to get the Haynes manual at bare minimum.
You note that you took the distibutor apart. Did you take out the lower trigger plate held in by two screws? If so....did you clean the triggers and cam and did you test them?
Ray |
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Najemnikarmy
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Joined: August 08, 2018
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:44 pm Post subject: Re: 73 412 Type 4- Fuel injection problem |
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The manual supposed to come in a few days. I didn’t get a chance to test it but I will tomorrow as it got to late. I didn’t know there’s a second relay in the backseat armrest. I’ll have to check that out.
Thanks |
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Najemnikarmy
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Joined: August 08, 2018
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:23 am Post subject: Re: 73 412 Type 4- Fuel injection problem |
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Turned the car to the on position to initiate the battery and only this wire seems to being getting electricity
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:38 am Post subject: Re: 73 412 Type 4- Fuel injection problem |
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| Najemnikarmy wrote: |
Turned the car to the on position to initiate the battery and only this wire seems to being getting electricity
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I will have to look in the book later today.
That "should" be about right...kind of. When you turn the key on that relay should get power to close part of it and relay power to the ECU. That double white wire goes to the fuel injection system.
Don't get me quoting the colors right and what energizes right now. Have to look in the book.
One quick test of if anything is operating correctly.
When you turn the key to the first position....not to "crank"...but to the first position....all of the lights in your right hand instrument...oil pressure, alternator should come on...and you should hear a click from the fuel pump relay under the dash....and you should hear the fuel pump buzz for about 2.5 seconds to charge the lines.
If that is working....then leave the key in that position and go back to the engine compartment....and slowly open the throttle all the way. There should be about 10 little clicks you will hear from the injectors. This is the throttle valve switch firing the injectors as the wiper arms in the TVS stroke across the enrichment contacts. If you do not hear these clicks...your EFI system is not getting power...either the relay it not receiving power or the relay is receiving power but not putting any out.
Same with the fuel pump relay. If you do not hear it click...its either not receiving power....or if you do hear the click and do not hear the fuel pump buzz...then thats the problem...or a problem. Ray |
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Najemnikarmy
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Joined: August 08, 2018
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:48 am Post subject: Re: 73 412 Type 4- Fuel injection problem |
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Yes all my lights turn on when I turn it to on. And I hear the click from the fuel pump relay, although my fuel pump doesn’t turn on because the fuse and wires going to the fuel don’t seem to work and get electricity so I manually added wires to the fuel pump from the battery and it seems to turn on that way
Last edited by Najemnikarmy on Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Najemnikarmy
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Joined: August 08, 2018
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:52 am Post subject: Re: 73 412 Type 4- Fuel injection problem |
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| I’ll do the throttle test later on today and I’ll tell you if I hear the clicks or not. |
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Najemnikarmy
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Joined: August 08, 2018
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:56 pm Post subject: Re: 73 412 Type 4- Fuel injection problem |
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Okay I didn’t hear the injectors click but I did hear the fuel injection wires or relay by the rear backside arm rest click loud when I turned the key to on. It makes a pop noise. Along with the fuel pump relay that I replaced in the fuse box.
Although the fuel pump is not starting unless I manually wire it to the battery and it starts right up sending fuel to the injectors.
Can you show me on this picture where the second fuel pump relay is by the brakes? I can’t seem to find it.
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