Rear springs type?

[1974vw412]

Hi, has anyone replaced their rear springs? I am looking to replace the rear springs but not sure where to start. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Michael

[raygreenwood]

[1974vw412]

PO installed coil spring adjusters, if left on I'm concerned the spring will break and when I remove the adjusters the springs may be already be damaged.

[raygreenwood]

[1974vw412]

Ray, thanks for the information. It's the threaded rod type of adjuster. PO clamped it so much that the coils are touching.

I'll remove the adjusters and measure the spring. I'll let you know what I find.

Again thank you for the information and guidance.

Michael

[raygreenwood]

[bmarkstopspeed]

Ray - the reference about adding a REAR SWAYBAR to the setup for a 412 - can you be specific on which bar from the 411 will actually work ? I'm assuming the reference was to take a Rear 411 bar and move it over to the 412 - but wondering as these are rather tough to find if there was another bar that you've found may also the mount points.

NOTE - I'll be updating to gas shocks on the rear as you've indicated and considering a new strut insert for the front, however truth be told my originals on the front are pretty tight.

The biggest problem with wagons....with what "looks" like rear sag.....is that the wagons MUST have gas shocks. All of them came from the factory with gas shocks. And.....the wagons came without rear swaybars....but all of the mounting points are there for the rear sway bar so if you can pull one off of a sedan with the mounting hardware.....it bolts right up in about an hour or less.
The wagon heavily benefits from a rear sway bar. All type 4 cars benefit from gas shocks im the rear.....and all benefit from the double rear sway bar mod. Ray

[bmarkstopspeed]

Any suggestions on replacing REAR SPRINGS for my ‘74 Wagon ? I’ve updated to new KYB gas shocks for rear however concern based on PO setup that the tears are shot. I’ve also mod’d the fronts to use a set of E30’s

Suggestions ??

[raygreenwood]

My apologies....somehow I missed your post from a few days ago.

First....there are two sway bar designs. There is the early "straight" bar.....which is slightly larger in diameter (I dont have my books in front of me)....its about 17mm......and the later bar which is what I call the "cranked" bar....because it has a section on the left side that is not straight but kind of looks like it was moved out of the way for something. It is aomething like 15.8mm diameter

Both will fit either vehicle. It was not a 411 versus 412 thing from what I recall....as some of the last 411 also had cranked sway bars. The mounting hardware is the same....brackets, bolts and end links.....but you have to use the rubber mounting bushing blocks from the bar they came with because of the small diameter difference. But....you can also modify after market sway bar/shock eye bushings to fit by shaving them with a razor knife, grinder and dremel tool to fit.

Both bars are about the same in tension...even though the later one is smaller diameter. That cranked section adds length to the spring bar.....and because there is more bar to "wind up".....it has more tension....which is why it can be equal to or greater than the early thicker bar. But.....being smaller in diameter its also less "snappy"....so you could say that it was designed to be more progressive in nature.

The rear springs......yes...keeping them compressed for a long period...."could" give them a "set"......but I have never seen that to be noticable.

If after replacing the rear shocks.....it still "seems" too low in the rear.......think about this first:

Is the front of the car very high in the nose?.....meaning does it still have that excessive factory nose high attitude?

And have you done anything to the front end yet?

The front end being nose high......as the front lifts......the chassis of the car "pivots" around the rear axle. This drives the rear bumper downward......and gives it an artificially low appearance in the rear end.

If you have not reworked the front end with the Audi shock mod.....then I would tell you to ignore the rear end for right now and fix the front first.

The problem with the stock factory shocks is this: they were designed with excessive rebound length. It was planning.....to allow extra droop in the front end...when the huge trunk is full.

Now.....if the factory shocks....or even factory aftermarket oil shocks like old KYBs, Boge or Monroe.....are still FULLY functional.....once you drive it around say...even for a mile or two.....the upper replenishment circuit (especially on the factory oil bath shocks...but somewhat on all of them).....loads up with fluid. So....when you stop the car on a level surface after driving.....the pressure in the upper circuit....drives the front end DOWNWARD....by about 1/2".

This lifts the rear slightly as the chassis pivots around the rear axle.....and...even though the car is still nose high.....it looks more normal.

However.....if you let the car sit for a while.....the top shock circuit bleeds down and allows the large front coil spring to drive the strut cartridges to full extension....so the front will be artifically higher again and the rear too low again.

When both factory and aftermarket front struts are worn out....about 99% of them these days....the front end is always at full extension and the rear is artificially too low. Ray

Edit: to get an idea of how much the nose high attitude is affecting the rear end......on flat groundmmm.open the trunk and start adding weight about 50 lbs at a time. Measure the distance of the chassis to the ground first. Measure at that body seam flange just below the rocker panels.....the lowest point of the chassis....and measure at the point just forward of the door. In fact.....that small donut shaped jack point just under the body forward of the door and rearward of the fender is a good bench matk point.

Also measure from a spot on the rear bumper.....to the ground. You can actually attache a string to the rear bumper with a weight on the end. Make sure it just touches the ground.

Measure first....then add weight until the distance to the ground changes by about 3/8"....then look again at the car from the side in both front and rear. Take before and after pictures. Then add weight until the front drops about 1/2" and compare again. You should see the rear bumper appear to rise a little. It really is just an "appearance".

The rear of the car is already very low from the factory. With stock tires...the lowest point of the suspension is under 6". Ray

[bmarkstopspeed]

Ray - thanks again for the background info and excellent tutorial....very much appreciated ! Here's what I've decided based on that info....

FRONT - replaced springs with BMW E30's and keep the stock struts as this car only had 50k miles and they were functioning quite well with solid resistance in both directions. This should drop the front 1-2" on it's own.

REAR - kept original springs (repainted) and replaced with new KYB - KG5410 shocks per recommendation in this posting. Previous owner had put in aluminum blocking nuts however I think that was more due to the shocks failing and they were looking for a quick fix back in the day.

** Also found a fell Samba member with a 411 rear sway bar that he's in process of removing from donor car - will install on the rear of my wagon per your suggestion !

TIRES - the wagon has a set of 5.5" deep dish 4-lug steelies that I've never seen however quite like the look....I've beefed up the tires to run 205/70/15 front and 225/70/15 rear - should help to push the back end up slightly as well and I really like how it fills up the wheel wells.

I'll post pics of the suspension setup once complete......cleaning parts, painting and replacing bushings/bearings before reinstall early next week.

Thanks again....>Brian

[raygreenwood]

[bmarkstopspeed]

Ray - ok, got it........looking for specific part info on your post for the STRUT CARTRIDGE but can't find it. Can you post here or give me a direction on finding a shorter cartridge (Audi mod ?) that would be appropriate ?

Thanks,
Brian

[raygreenwood]

[bmarkstopspeed]

Ray - got it ! Yes, I read thru all of the Audi mod document.....very thorough, but had to take a double look that it was a strut insert for Audi 4000 on the parts.....I decided to open up my struts today and here's what I found (see pic) - can't imagine these were original but could be wrong.

KC4019
SH23
Made in Japan

NOTE - There is a bit of hydraulic fluid that was inside the strut when opened....I'm assuming that's from the strut seal leaking and therefore would need to be replaced (not wetness).

If that's the case, are any of these a proper swap out to Audi inserts ??

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Front-Suspension-Strut-Ca...:rk:7:pf:0

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Audi-80-90-4000-New-Boge-...:rk:4:pf:0

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Front-Strut-Insert-For-19...rk:10:pf:0

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Audi-4000-Quattro-08-1984...rk:15:pf:0

[raygreenwood]

I will have to look in my old receipt files to be sure...but those are probably replacement oil strut cartridges made by KYB. They were mostly blue.

They quit making these parts in 1998 or 1999. They were actually pretty good replacement struts. The issue...like the Boge and the Monroe and the Gabriel factory replacement cartridges....were that they were diligently made to be the same exact valving as factory...which was inadequate for rebound.

So they drove great right out of the box...but if you seriously drive the car a lot...they would beat the crap out of themselves on rough roads. Not that you would feel it...but it made for short life span.

Back when I could buy these new in high school and college...I never got more than 30-40k out of them before the "banging" started...as the struts would unload explosively on rebound on rough roads.

The oil can be from one or both of two places.

1. The original factory struts....were "wet bath"..external oil reservoir type....meaning what you really had was a complete double tube shock absorber...without the outer tube. The strut unit was submerged in a pool of oil inside of the strut housing. It had an 0-ring seal and valve assembly at the top. Very complex fluid path.
They were fantastic quality. Just superb manufacturing. If the oil never leaked out...you could get 100k miles from them easily.

Many times when the dealer or shops replaced struts with cartridge style like the KYB...they just dumped out the oil from the factory strut and didn't bother drying or wiping it out so you have some oil residue inside.

2. If the top seal around the rod on the KYB cartridge is leaking...and they usually are....it gets oil down inside.

As for where to buy the Audi strut cartridges.....

First...DO NOT buy them on Ebay. You have no idea how old they are. Just like brake parts....struts and shocks have a shelf lifespan due to degradation and aging of the outer seal...and also due to leakage of internal gas from one side of the unit to the other.

Second.....the ONLY brand/model I can subscribe to....are the KYB GR-2 gas/oil shocks...which are now called the Excel-G.

Its not that they are probably the only shocks that will work...its that the valving is complex on struts...and I have found that exact strut cartridge with its gas/oil combo, valving and pressure...to work excellently. I have no idea how the others will work or what their valving is.

As I noted in the "how to" I went through over 50 struts playing with valving. I actually think I just got lucky with the Gr-2's from the Audi. That experimentation might have gone on for years.

It really does make about a 200% increase in handling and road control....and does not beat up the ball joints.

Buy your struts from a local Flaps that has some age limits on parts....and you can go back to them if they sell you something old that is leaked out on gas etc. Also....you are not really saving much money on Ebay.

For example...the KYB Excel-G 365008 cartridges are about $59 at Oreilleys each. Most of the cartridges you see on ebay...are not far off of that in price.

Also important...if anyone is selling you an "Excel-G"...and the color is silver....those shocks are VERY old....like about 6 years at least because they changed teh color to black years ago. Too old to be using a gas shock that has been sitting on the shelf.

But....all of that being said....if you can get known to be brand recent build...Sachs shocks for example....and feel up to some experimentation....it would be nice to know if they work as well as the KYB Excel-G...to give people some more "known" choices.
Maybe in a year when my car is back on the road....I might try a set just for comparison.

If you or someone else has already done teh Audi mod with teh KYB Excel-G...and know the feel and characteristics...I say...yes...go ahead and try another brand of the same gas oil strut cartridge. With foreknowledge...you can then compare.

But until I have tried them or someone else with the mod has....I just cannot recommend anything else but the Excel-G. The worry is not that another brand will not work...but that if it is too stiff....it will damage the ball joints...which are hard to get now.

The Excel-G's are a known quantity to me. I put 89,000 miles on a set with this mod. Ray

[bmarkstopspeed]

Ray - curious, is there in fact a “stock” replacement (one that actually fills up strut) insert available from KYB ?? While I’ll probabky go thru the mod, I would like to simply replace the inserts for time being but everything I’m seeing is too short to fill up the strut.

Please advise....

[raygreenwood]

[Hawker]

Gents, Hello!

I have been reading through the 411/412 section of this site and it has reignited my passion for my 411LE. I have actually owned two, both 72 and my current car is one of the last 411’s. I am very interested in all the work Ray has done with these cars and especially the front suspension upgrade. Excellent work. Here is a table of equivalent front shock absorbers to the KYB 365008’s. I’m not 100% sure it’s accurate, but I decided to do some research today. Either way, I will choose the KYB units as Ray has done some thorough testing.

[raygreenwood]

Thank you!

Very nice list! Its good to have this list because......if there are any companies that for some reason may be making a replacement cartridge for a car that is still prevalent somewhere in the world......and it is identical to the original on the inside to our ORIGINAL struts.....but has a totally difgerent part number due to some trivial adaptable difference.......like the KYB shocks for the rear which outside of some lower bushing side shims.....is the same as Ford econoline 150......

Then this could be useful for those just wanting bone stock peformance who do not have the time and effort to do mods. Ray

[Hawker]

The KONI equivalent is the yellow 8610-1262Sport insert with “fully adjustable valving for use with lowered springs”, apparently. Rob