Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot.
Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Forum Index -> Performance/Engines/Transmissions Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
mark tucker
Samba Member


Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
mark tucker is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. Reply with quote

that wood splaine it. these are around 2002~2003.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Clatter
Samba Member


Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7527
Location: Santa Cruz
Clatter is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. Reply with quote

mark tucker wrote:
that wood splaine it. these are around 2002~2003.


A wood splaine would help make a huge badger!
_________________
Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
67rustavenger Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: February 24, 2015
Posts: 9663
Location: Oregon
67rustavenger is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. Reply with quote

After careful trial and error.

I have concluded, that Mark has the correct idea.

I tried raising the rocker shaft. The geo just got worse. It looked like it should at half lift. When at "0" lift.
At half lift the rocker shaft is in align with the valve stem at a 90°. But the PR is far out of alignment.
Hence the need to lower the rocker stands on the head.

So I'm gonna drop the heads of at the machinist tomorrow and have the rocker stands shaved 0.100" to get the rocker geo in somewhat of a acceptable angle.

Thanks to all that have contributed valuable information in this thread.

Like I said. Hopefully this thread in the future will help some garage enthusiast.

Have a great weekend.
_________________
I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!

There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Dan Ruddock
Samba Member


Joined: October 25, 2012
Posts: 3574
Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
Dan Ruddock is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:59 am    Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. Reply with quote

67rustavenger wrote:
After careful trial and error.

I have concluded, that Mark has the correct idea.

I tried raising the rocker shaft. The geo just got worse. It looked like it should at half lift. When at "0" lift.
At half lift the rocker shaft is in align with the valve stem at a 90°. But the PR is far out of alignment.
Hence the need to lower the rocker stands on the head.

So I'm gonna drop the heads of at the machinist tomorrow and have the rocker stands shaved 0.100" to get the rocker geo in somewhat of a acceptable angle.

Thanks to all that have contributed valuable information in this thread.

Like I said. Hopefully this thread in the future will help some garage enthusiast.

Have a great weekend.


I would go .060. Dan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
calvinater
Samba Member


Joined: September 06, 2014
Posts: 3306
Location: 802
calvinater is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:06 am    Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. Reply with quote

All right , way to go Rusty. Getting closer to the end . Keep us informed Thanks for sharing.
_________________
"Albatross"!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
[email protected]
Samba Member


Joined: August 15, 2002
Posts: 4394
Location: Brew City
roy@mofoco.com is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:32 am    Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. Reply with quote

Dan Ruddock wrote:
67rustavenger wrote:
After careful trial and error.

I have concluded, that Mark has the correct idea.

I tried raising the rocker shaft. The geo just got worse. It looked like it should at half lift. When at "0" lift.
At half lift the rocker shaft is in align with the valve stem at a 90°. But the PR is far out of alignment.
Hence the need to lower the rocker stands on the head.

So I'm gonna drop the heads of at the machinist tomorrow and have the rocker stands shaved 0.100" to get the rocker geo in somewhat of a acceptable angle.

Thanks to all that have contributed valuable information in this thread.

Like I said. Hopefully this thread in the future will help some garage enthusiast.

Have a great weekend.


I would go .060. Dan


Glad Mark was able to help you out with this. If you want them to line up correctly like on my heads, I moved my rocker studs .050"

Good to see it all working out for you, should be a very nice engine!!!
_________________
Please "LIKE" us on facebook to see what we are working on.

https://www.facebook.com/mofoco?ref=ts&fref=ts

www.mofoco.com

Cylinder Head Reference Sheet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
mark tucker
Samba Member


Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
mark tucker is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:50 am    Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. Reply with quote

I dont mill the heads, I mill the rocker shaft blocks. I also usualy check side clearance and mill the sides of the blocks so I can use at least 2 thrust washers,I like 3 but 2 will do. If you have to use a thin shim(less than .010) put it on the non thrust side of the rockers so it does not wadd up or deform.
Be sure whatever is milled they are even&square.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
jason
Samba Member


Joined: August 07, 2002
Posts: 3443
Location: Garage
jason is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. Reply with quote

Tims milled my rocker blocks when I ordered my heads. Longer valves does the same thing. I wonder if the valves are shorter nowadays.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
74 Thing
Samba Member


Joined: September 02, 2004
Posts: 7369

74 Thing is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. Reply with quote

Yes, modify the rocker blocks (not the head) or use thicker lash caps as I suggested above.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
67rustavenger Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: February 24, 2015
Posts: 9663
Location: Oregon
67rustavenger is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. Reply with quote

Well, It turns out that none of the local machine shops on my side of the hill. Have a Bridgeport Mill.

So it looks like I'll have to shave the rocker blocks myself.

I have a belt/disc sander and placed a 120grt. belt on the sander.
The Scat rocker blocks look like they were disc sanded. Rather than machined anyway. So I'll follow Scat's lead and do the same thing.

I'll use the table guide to keep things in check and go very slowly.
Careful measuring here will mean success.

Initial measurements of the rocker blocks reveals that they range from 1.118" to 1.121" in height.

I'm going to shave off .060" for the first pass (not in one continuous grind) and see how things measure out.
Shooting for 1.080" even

More to come...... Later.
_________________
I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!

There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
jason
Samba Member


Joined: August 07, 2002
Posts: 3443
Location: Garage
jason is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. Reply with quote

Good luck with that
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
modok
Samba Member


Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26740
Location: Colorado Springs
modok is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. Reply with quote

it can also be done with a lathe.
I have all three in my garage, and I'd use the little crappy lathe. Or course I would not do it either, but I see why, you don't like the angle of the adjuster screw, far as oil hole alignment and so forth.

It's cool we don't HAVE to agree but amazingly this thread it seems like we all agree on the theory, we just have different ideas of....what I'd call priorities. I'd make the guides #1 priority, and let the pushrod tip and adjuster live their fate, which if they are good quality material will probably be fine. Is that the right choice? not really sure. They have 3/8 screws? I'd not worry.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
BG Brian
Samba Member


Joined: July 25, 2010
Posts: 175
Location: sw washington
BG Brian is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. Reply with quote

Ernie at the delta park Baxters Auto shaved some rocker blocks for me.They still have a full machine shop Not on your side of the hill but you might want to try
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
rugblaster
Samba Member


Joined: March 31, 2016
Posts: 1163
Location: San Angelo, Texas
rugblaster is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. Reply with quote

Ok, I got this figured out.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This photo shows the valve adjusting screw in perfect alignment with the valve stem. We know it's perfect because the line that runs through the center of the rocker shaft to the tip of the valve adjusting screw is 90 degrees to the valve stem centerline. The same would be true if you are using swivel foot adjusters or rockers like the OP is using. You would simply position the arched foot at mid-arch on the lash cap or valve stem. If your rocker foot is not hitting the lash cap directly in the center, there isn't anything to do but lower the rocker studs. Which would be a bitch. The arrows indicate the rocker shaft being moved along the rocker studs to get the rocker in this position. The rocker shaft is just sliding back and forth on the studs. Note the rocker is touching the valve.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This photo shows the rocker block and the cylinder head boss. There is a gap here. This is how much the rocker block had to be moved back to get the adjuster to be in perfect alignment with the valve stem.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


At this point, you simply run the 8 X 1.25mm nut on the rocker stud until it just touches the rocker block. With this done, you obtain the lift of the cam you are using. Get the information from the cam timing tag, actually measure cam lift, whatever. Then multiply cam lift by your rocker ratio. This will be your total lift. In this example, the cam has .368 lift and the rocker is stock at 1.1 giving .404 inch total. We want the valve in the position in the first photo at HALF LIFT. so, divide total lift by 2. we get .202 inch. We know that (and it's very convenient for our purposes) 1.25mm is right at .050 inch. So for our example, we put a sharpie mark on the rocker shaft nut at 12 o'clock and like a thimble on a micrometer, run the nut down 4 turns (.202)


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


If there is space remaining between the rocker block and the head boss, measure that distance and that is the thickness shim you need. If you can only turn the nut 3 turns you need to mill .050 off the rocker blocks. If you get 3.5 turns you mill .025 and so on.

The great thing about doing this in this manner is that can be done with little or no tools. After you get this part sorted out, then measure for pushrods.
_________________
'69 Karmy, '69 Camper, Meyers clone, '65 drag bug, 10.78 @ 128 (sold it) '51 Dodge farm truck,
'09 MB E350 '18 MB E400, '65 Plymouth Valiant convertible and a '19 Ford F250 King Ranch (nicer, but dirty, farm truck)

VWoA factory trained line tech 75 till 90 or so
ASE Master Certification
VWoA Assoc. of Quality Technicians inductee (One of 25 in the five state southwest region)
La Confrerie des Chevaliers du Tastevin (San Angelo Chapter)
TCU ......GO FROGS!!!!!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
67rustavenger Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: February 24, 2015
Posts: 9663
Location: Oregon
67rustavenger is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. Reply with quote

Thank you for the write up rugblaster. That is helpful.

So I sanded .060" off the rocker blocks and came up with the following results,
"0" lift
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Half lift
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Full lift
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Of course this all a compromise to the stock rocker geo. But this is not a stock engine.

Unless somebody see's an error., i'm going to live with this as it is now.

Thought's?
_________________
I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!

There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
calvinater
Samba Member


Joined: September 06, 2014
Posts: 3306
Location: 802
calvinater is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. Reply with quote

Why are your valve end of the rockers blued like that? Did you heat treat them?
_________________
"Albatross"!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
67rustavenger Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: February 24, 2015
Posts: 9663
Location: Oregon
67rustavenger is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. Reply with quote

calvinater wrote:
Why are your valve end of the rockers blued like that? Did you heat treat them?

I didn't heat treat them.
They came that way.

The way I understand things. The rockers are quickly heated and then quenched to harden the slipper foot.

These rockers are way better quality than the AA rockers were.

Thanks for asking.
_________________
I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!

There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Pruneman99
Samba Member


Joined: February 22, 2012
Posts: 5013
Location: Oceanside
Pruneman99 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. Reply with quote

calvinater wrote:
Why are your valve end of the rockers blued like that? Did you heat treat them?


They come like that from scat. If they are not heat hardened, they will wear out very, very quickly.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
calvinater
Samba Member


Joined: September 06, 2014
Posts: 3306
Location: 802
calvinater is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. Reply with quote

Thank you
_________________
"Albatross"!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
rugblaster
Samba Member


Joined: March 31, 2016
Posts: 1163
Location: San Angelo, Texas
rugblaster is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. Reply with quote

It looks like your very close to 90 degrees at half lift...I would screw your adjusters in about 5 turns and shorten the pushrods. You have too much of that adjusting screw sticking out there. GOOD JOB!!!. One can do amazing things with a belt sander and a flat bastard.
_________________
'69 Karmy, '69 Camper, Meyers clone, '65 drag bug, 10.78 @ 128 (sold it) '51 Dodge farm truck,
'09 MB E350 '18 MB E400, '65 Plymouth Valiant convertible and a '19 Ford F250 King Ranch (nicer, but dirty, farm truck)

VWoA factory trained line tech 75 till 90 or so
ASE Master Certification
VWoA Assoc. of Quality Technicians inductee (One of 25 in the five state southwest region)
La Confrerie des Chevaliers du Tastevin (San Angelo Chapter)
TCU ......GO FROGS!!!!!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Performance/Engines/Transmissions All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Page 3 of 7

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2023, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB
Links to eBay or other vendor sites may be affiliate links where the site receives compensation.