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mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. |
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that wood splaine it. these are around 2002~2003. |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:36 pm Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. |
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mark tucker wrote: |
that wood splaine it. these are around 2002~2003. |
A wood splaine would help make a huge badger! _________________ Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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67rustavenger Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015 Posts: 9663 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:21 pm Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. |
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After careful trial and error.
I have concluded, that Mark has the correct idea.
I tried raising the rocker shaft. The geo just got worse. It looked like it should at half lift. When at "0" lift.
At half lift the rocker shaft is in align with the valve stem at a 90°. But the PR is far out of alignment.
Hence the need to lower the rocker stands on the head.
So I'm gonna drop the heads of at the machinist tomorrow and have the rocker stands shaved 0.100" to get the rocker geo in somewhat of a acceptable angle.
Thanks to all that have contributed valuable information in this thread.
Like I said. Hopefully this thread in the future will help some garage enthusiast.
Have a great weekend. _________________ I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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Dan Ruddock Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012 Posts: 3574 Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:59 am Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. |
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67rustavenger wrote: |
After careful trial and error.
I have concluded, that Mark has the correct idea.
I tried raising the rocker shaft. The geo just got worse. It looked like it should at half lift. When at "0" lift.
At half lift the rocker shaft is in align with the valve stem at a 90°. But the PR is far out of alignment.
Hence the need to lower the rocker stands on the head.
So I'm gonna drop the heads of at the machinist tomorrow and have the rocker stands shaved 0.100" to get the rocker geo in somewhat of a acceptable angle.
Thanks to all that have contributed valuable information in this thread.
Like I said. Hopefully this thread in the future will help some garage enthusiast.
Have a great weekend. |
I would go .060. Dan |
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calvinater Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2014 Posts: 3306 Location: 802
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Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:06 am Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. |
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All right , way to go Rusty. Getting closer to the end . Keep us informed Thanks for sharing. _________________ "Albatross"! |
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002 Posts: 4394 Location: Brew City
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Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:32 am Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. |
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Dan Ruddock wrote: |
67rustavenger wrote: |
After careful trial and error.
I have concluded, that Mark has the correct idea.
I tried raising the rocker shaft. The geo just got worse. It looked like it should at half lift. When at "0" lift.
At half lift the rocker shaft is in align with the valve stem at a 90°. But the PR is far out of alignment.
Hence the need to lower the rocker stands on the head.
So I'm gonna drop the heads of at the machinist tomorrow and have the rocker stands shaved 0.100" to get the rocker geo in somewhat of a acceptable angle.
Thanks to all that have contributed valuable information in this thread.
Like I said. Hopefully this thread in the future will help some garage enthusiast.
Have a great weekend. |
I would go .060. Dan |
Glad Mark was able to help you out with this. If you want them to line up correctly like on my heads, I moved my rocker studs .050"
Good to see it all working out for you, should be a very nice engine!!! _________________ Please "LIKE" us on facebook to see what we are working on.
https://www.facebook.com/mofoco?ref=ts&fref=ts
www.mofoco.com
Cylinder Head Reference Sheet |
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mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:50 am Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. |
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I dont mill the heads, I mill the rocker shaft blocks. I also usualy check side clearance and mill the sides of the blocks so I can use at least 2 thrust washers,I like 3 but 2 will do. If you have to use a thin shim(less than .010) put it on the non thrust side of the rockers so it does not wadd up or deform.
Be sure whatever is milled they are even&square. |
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jason Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2002 Posts: 3443 Location: Garage
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Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:59 pm Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. |
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Tims milled my rocker blocks when I ordered my heads. Longer valves does the same thing. I wonder if the valves are shorter nowadays. |
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74 Thing Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2004 Posts: 7369
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Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. |
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Yes, modify the rocker blocks (not the head) or use thicker lash caps as I suggested above. |
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67rustavenger Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015 Posts: 9663 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:17 pm Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. |
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Well, It turns out that none of the local machine shops on my side of the hill. Have a Bridgeport Mill.
So it looks like I'll have to shave the rocker blocks myself.
I have a belt/disc sander and placed a 120grt. belt on the sander.
The Scat rocker blocks look like they were disc sanded. Rather than machined anyway. So I'll follow Scat's lead and do the same thing.
I'll use the table guide to keep things in check and go very slowly.
Careful measuring here will mean success.
Initial measurements of the rocker blocks reveals that they range from 1.118" to 1.121" in height.
I'm going to shave off .060" for the first pass (not in one continuous grind) and see how things measure out.
Shooting for 1.080" even
More to come...... Later. _________________ I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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jason Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2002 Posts: 3443 Location: Garage
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Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:55 pm Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. |
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Good luck with that |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26740 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. |
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it can also be done with a lathe.
I have all three in my garage, and I'd use the little crappy lathe. Or course I would not do it either, but I see why, you don't like the angle of the adjuster screw, far as oil hole alignment and so forth.
It's cool we don't HAVE to agree but amazingly this thread it seems like we all agree on the theory, we just have different ideas of....what I'd call priorities. I'd make the guides #1 priority, and let the pushrod tip and adjuster live their fate, which if they are good quality material will probably be fine. Is that the right choice? not really sure. They have 3/8 screws? I'd not worry. |
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BG Brian Samba Member
Joined: July 25, 2010 Posts: 175 Location: sw washington
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Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:32 pm Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. |
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Ernie at the delta park Baxters Auto shaved some rocker blocks for me.They still have a full machine shop Not on your side of the hill but you might want to try |
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rugblaster Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2016 Posts: 1163 Location: San Angelo, Texas
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Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:19 pm Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. |
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Ok, I got this figured out.
This photo shows the valve adjusting screw in perfect alignment with the valve stem. We know it's perfect because the line that runs through the center of the rocker shaft to the tip of the valve adjusting screw is 90 degrees to the valve stem centerline. The same would be true if you are using swivel foot adjusters or rockers like the OP is using. You would simply position the arched foot at mid-arch on the lash cap or valve stem. If your rocker foot is not hitting the lash cap directly in the center, there isn't anything to do but lower the rocker studs. Which would be a bitch. The arrows indicate the rocker shaft being moved along the rocker studs to get the rocker in this position. The rocker shaft is just sliding back and forth on the studs. Note the rocker is touching the valve.
This photo shows the rocker block and the cylinder head boss. There is a gap here. This is how much the rocker block had to be moved back to get the adjuster to be in perfect alignment with the valve stem.
At this point, you simply run the 8 X 1.25mm nut on the rocker stud until it just touches the rocker block. With this done, you obtain the lift of the cam you are using. Get the information from the cam timing tag, actually measure cam lift, whatever. Then multiply cam lift by your rocker ratio. This will be your total lift. In this example, the cam has .368 lift and the rocker is stock at 1.1 giving .404 inch total. We want the valve in the position in the first photo at HALF LIFT. so, divide total lift by 2. we get .202 inch. We know that (and it's very convenient for our purposes) 1.25mm is right at .050 inch. So for our example, we put a sharpie mark on the rocker shaft nut at 12 o'clock and like a thimble on a micrometer, run the nut down 4 turns (.202)
If there is space remaining between the rocker block and the head boss, measure that distance and that is the thickness shim you need. If you can only turn the nut 3 turns you need to mill .050 off the rocker blocks. If you get 3.5 turns you mill .025 and so on.
The great thing about doing this in this manner is that can be done with little or no tools. After you get this part sorted out, then measure for pushrods. _________________ '69 Karmy, '69 Camper, Meyers clone, '65 drag bug, 10.78 @ 128 (sold it) '51 Dodge farm truck,
'09 MB E350 '18 MB E400, '65 Plymouth Valiant convertible and a '19 Ford F250 King Ranch (nicer, but dirty, farm truck)
VWoA factory trained line tech 75 till 90 or so
ASE Master Certification
VWoA Assoc. of Quality Technicians inductee (One of 25 in the five state southwest region)
La Confrerie des Chevaliers du Tastevin (San Angelo Chapter)
TCU ......GO FROGS!!!!!! |
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67rustavenger Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015 Posts: 9663 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:54 pm Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. |
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Thank you for the write up rugblaster. That is helpful.
So I sanded .060" off the rocker blocks and came up with the following results,
"0" lift
Half lift
Full lift
Of course this all a compromise to the stock rocker geo. But this is not a stock engine.
Unless somebody see's an error., i'm going to live with this as it is now.
Thought's? _________________ I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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calvinater Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2014 Posts: 3306 Location: 802
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Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:17 pm Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. |
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Why are your valve end of the rockers blued like that? Did you heat treat them? _________________ "Albatross"! |
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67rustavenger Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015 Posts: 9663 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:24 pm Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. |
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calvinater wrote: |
Why are your valve end of the rockers blued like that? Did you heat treat them? |
I didn't heat treat them.
They came that way.
The way I understand things. The rockers are quickly heated and then quenched to harden the slipper foot.
These rockers are way better quality than the AA rockers were.
Thanks for asking. _________________ I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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Pruneman99 Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2012 Posts: 5013 Location: Oceanside
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Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. |
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calvinater wrote: |
Why are your valve end of the rockers blued like that? Did you heat treat them? |
They come like that from scat. If they are not heat hardened, they will wear out very, very quickly. |
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calvinater Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2014 Posts: 3306 Location: 802
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Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:15 pm Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. |
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Thank you _________________ "Albatross"! |
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rugblaster Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2016 Posts: 1163 Location: San Angelo, Texas
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Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:16 pm Post subject: Re: Understanding 1.4 slipper foot rocker geo. Not elephant foot. |
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It looks like your very close to 90 degrees at half lift...I would screw your adjusters in about 5 turns and shorten the pushrods. You have too much of that adjusting screw sticking out there. GOOD JOB!!!. One can do amazing things with a belt sander and a flat bastard. _________________ '69 Karmy, '69 Camper, Meyers clone, '65 drag bug, 10.78 @ 128 (sold it) '51 Dodge farm truck,
'09 MB E350 '18 MB E400, '65 Plymouth Valiant convertible and a '19 Ford F250 King Ranch (nicer, but dirty, farm truck)
VWoA factory trained line tech 75 till 90 or so
ASE Master Certification
VWoA Assoc. of Quality Technicians inductee (One of 25 in the five state southwest region)
La Confrerie des Chevaliers du Tastevin (San Angelo Chapter)
TCU ......GO FROGS!!!!!! |
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