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codemachinist Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2018 Posts: 14
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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:44 pm Post subject: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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I'm working on a model of the front axle of a type 87 or 877 beetle. I'm uncertain if it's properly called a Kommandeurwagen. I'm trying to model up the 4x4 with the wide fender beetle body. It's hard to tell what it's differential housing is supposed to look like because of all the images I have found there are only one or two of the same front end and usually small images, not great angles, and not great lighting. I have done what I can with about a dozen images of what I've been able to find. I thought if I asked here maybe someone could point me to a good source of images on the subject or maybe even a dimension or two. Even a bolt pattern would be amazingly helpful.
Here's a screenshot of the basic block of what I've got so far. There's still much that needs a radius and draft added to it but this is decently roughed out for spacing.
From what I can tell it looks like there are a couple of different types. I have images that are certainly one piece units and others that look like they are two piece units with the gear carrier and the beam mount being cast separately. At the very least there are two different patterns cast into the relief for the beam mount. I also have some images with the brake lines coming out of the side of the housing and some with them coming down over the top. I'm curious if this is a prototype vs production design difference or a schwimmwagen /type 87.
Can someone clarify whether it's called a Kommanderswagen or not, and what it's type number is? I'm getting conflicting information from searching the internet. |
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usariemen Samba Member
Joined: August 28, 2004 Posts: 1745 Location: Germany
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Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:33 pm Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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I only can add some pics.
_________________ Master of my domain! |
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codemachinist Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2018 Posts: 14
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Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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Those pictures are very helpful. I don't have any that show the casting reliefs in the inside of the cavity. Those are clear enough I can see what's going on. These also confirm for me that there is a one piece and a two piece version. |
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nshaddox Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2005 Posts: 612 Location: Hammatramma, MI
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Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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There’s a bunch more pics of them on vw166 marketplace right now. I think they are all two piece. The one in the pic above has evidence of blind bolt bosses if you look closely. |
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codemachinist Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2018 Posts: 14
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Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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nshaddox, thanks for the tip about the pictures. Though they aren't real clear or high res but they do get some angles I've not been able to see yet. So they do clear up a few points of confusion for me thanks. If you come across something with a dimension on it that would be the best. Right now I'm working off an assumption that the front beam tube diameter is 54mm. I don't know if that is correct though. |
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D-train Samba Member
Joined: January 08, 2007 Posts: 1449
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Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:36 pm Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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What’s the end result that u hope to achieve? Make a new one? I’d love to have a 4wd bug! _________________ shiny paint doesnt make it worth any more |
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codemachinist Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2018 Posts: 14
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Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:35 pm Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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A 4wd bug would probably be much easier achieved using an existing awd system and converting it.
-Don't flame me for that comment, the purist part of my brain just vomited on the practical part of my brain as I wrote that out. I try to keep them separated as they can get quite uncivil towards each other.-
There is no real end result in mind. Just a good 3d model of the 4x4 drive train for the AC VW chassis. The motivation is from an interest in somethings I find odd about military design choices and criteria from pre-war to late WW2.
Admittedly though, there is an underlying curiosity I do have for what It would take to make a 4wd bug though. From the few pictures of the R&D vehicles there are, it would need to have a much larger tunnel in relation to the existing frame. Also looks like it has a wider track width, not just because of the tires. The extra bend in the front fenders of the type 87 cars compared to the type 82e looks to be more than the difference of the tires, suggesting a wider beam or different spindles or arms. This may be to give more radius-ing of the front CV's. There are other things though, and probably many I haven't even noticed yet. |
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mcam Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2017 Posts: 2 Location: New Zealand
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Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:18 am Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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Out of curiosity, what CAD application are you using to model that?
codemachinist wrote: |
I'm working on a model of the front axle of a type 87 or 877 beetle. I'm uncertain if it's properly called a Kommandeurwagen. I'm trying to model up the 4x4 with the wide fender beetle body. It's hard to tell what it's differential housing is supposed to look like because of all the images I have found there are only one or two of the same front end and usually small images, not great angles, and not great lighting. I have done what I can with about a dozen images of what I've been able to find. I thought if I asked here maybe someone could point me to a good source of images on the subject or maybe even a dimension or two. Even a bolt pattern would be amazingly helpful.
Here's a screenshot of the basic block of what I've got so far. There's still much that needs a radius and draft added to it but this is decently roughed out for spacing.
From what I can tell it looks like there are a couple of different types. I have images that are certainly one piece units and others that look like they are two piece units with the gear carrier and the beam mount being cast separately. At the very least there are two different patterns cast into the relief for the beam mount. I also have some images with the brake lines coming out of the side of the housing and some with them coming down over the top. I'm curious if this is a prototype vs production design difference or a schwimmwagen /type 87.
Can someone clarify whether it's called a Kommanderswagen or not, and what it's type number is? I'm getting conflicting information from searching the internet. |
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geneL3c Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2007 Posts: 296 Location: Bridgehampton,NY
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Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:44 pm Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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According to Dr. Hans-George Mayer's book " VW Beetle At War " the Typ 87 was referred to as the Kommandeurwagen. It had the 4 - wheel drive mechanics of the Schwimmwagen and widened fenders to accommodate the extra width of the Kronprinz wheels with sand tires. Many were successfully used in North Africa by Rommel's Afrika Korps.
In speaking with people who have driven the Schwimmwagen on the road, it is not a pleasant experience on hard surface pavement and difficult to maintain suspension adjustment and 4 - wheel drive integrity.
I'm cloning a Typ 87 from a '55 Sunroof donor, but am not going to bother with attempting a 4 - wheel drive conversion, just the appearance of.
I had inadvertently built an " Offroad Beetle " in the 1970's when I installed a Bus transmission and front end lift kit in a '57 Sunroof without knowing of the existence of the wartime VWs. With 10 " rims in the rear and 6 " rims in front with all terrain tires, it would go anywhere a 4 - wheel drive Jeep would go.
I'm hoping my newest creation will be at least half the fun of my original, so sorry I sold it. Gene |
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codemachinist Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2018 Posts: 14
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Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:04 pm Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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@mcam - This was done in FreeCAD. Even though it is rather tedious to use after having learned to use NX (my preferred) and a bit of Solidworks. The advantage though is I don't lose access to my files if I change jobs. Also I like that I can send them to non-engineers and they can download the software to look at them.
@geneL3c - I actually just purchased that book the other day. Should have it in my hand in the next week or so. Hopefully clears some things up. If not, at least I hope the references are listed in the back and will be of use. |
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geneL3c Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2007 Posts: 296 Location: Bridgehampton,NY
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Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:07 pm Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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The book is relatively general with little in the way of specific detail, but gives just enough information to sort out most of the sub-models of the KDF, Kublewagen and Schwimmwagen based vehicles. Gene |
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codemachinist Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2018 Posts: 14
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Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:09 pm Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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It looked like a modelers guide book. Tidbits of technical information with several illustrations. I buy them from time to time for a subject I'm interested in because they usually have a very extensive reference source list. Which is the real value of them. It's a rather lazy way to find source material. |
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geneL3c Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2007 Posts: 296 Location: Bridgehampton,NY
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Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:21 pm Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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I found it somewhat useful for what I was looking for but certainly not a serious technical treatise. For my needs, I just needed a couple of original photos since I'm just doing a look a like. Your interest seems much more specific. Gene |
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Bruce Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003 Posts: 17273 Location: Left coast, Canada
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Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:57 pm Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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geneL3c wrote: |
... Kommandeurwagen. ..... Many were successfully used in North Africa by Rommel's Afrika Korps. |
This isn't true. The only VWs used in N Africa were Kubelwagens. _________________
overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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geneL3c Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2007 Posts: 296 Location: Bridgehampton,NY
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Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:12 pm Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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Not sure I agree, there are quite a few photos showing what appear to be Typ 87 vehicles with large sand tires on Kronprinz wheels on what is obviously sand. Not aware of any other theatres of operation with that kind of terrain. Gene |
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codemachinist Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2018 Posts: 14
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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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The type 87's were in production in 1941, and with the resupplies in north africa could very well have been sent there. Considering Rommel was very interested in newer technologies and their employment on the battlefield, it would not surprise me that some were sent there for deployment. The fact that he and the fuhrer greatly admired each other, coupled with the fuhrer's love of porsche and that little place that would become wolfsburg. I would be surprised that they didn't serve in north africa. The KFZ's (armored halftracks) were made at about the same time in 1941 and saw extensive service there, no logistical reason the Type 87's would not have been there as the ideal rocky terrain scout car. Will have to look for pictures from the british sources documenting Wavell's and Montgomery's operations and enemy evaluations for better verification of their presence in that theatre. |
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mandraks Samba Member
Joined: November 28, 2004 Posts: 7045 Location: Lawrenceville, Ga
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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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wikipedia seems to agree. and there are tons of scale models with afrika korps livery.
i am sure somebody will find a proper picture _________________ regards
Uli
----------------------------------------
'53 3-Fold Oval, L35 Metallic Blue, looking for a narrow hatch panel |
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geneL3c Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2007 Posts: 296 Location: Bridgehampton,NY
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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:02 pm Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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I Googled " Typ 87 in North Africa " and got quite a few written references to Typ 87s being used by DAK ( Deutsche Afrika Korps ) , models, and artists renditions of vehicles in desert settings, but no actual photos. I'm pretty sure that someone has authentic photos that were used by the model makers who are usually very focused on accuracy. I'm content to use the model documentation that I have to make my " clone " since I make no claim that it will be an original and that I can have a little fun with, so it will probably just look like a big model ! Gene |
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codemachinist Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2018 Posts: 14
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:21 pm Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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Are you going to paint the original DAK palm tree symbol on the door with the 4 arm broken cross or the more subtle one I see some people using the letters DAK in it's place? My only thoughts for using the second one is that I would be wary of those ignorant of historical context causing damage to or attacking my family if they were with me. |
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codemachinist Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2018 Posts: 14
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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Also there is one picture I was able to find. I can't confirm it because the door is open on the car so while it has the title of being in africa it doesn't have the little bob thing over the driver side front fender. The officer in the picture looks more like an SS than a DAK to me. The car doesn't have a rag top either. I thought all the Type 87's were ragtop. I claim no expertise in the matter though, just observations.
http://world-war-2.wikia.com/wiki/Type_87_Kommandeurwagen?file=Type_87_Africa.jpg |
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