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geneL3c
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2007
Posts: 296
Location: Bridgehampton,NY
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 Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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Since your knowledge and experience is so superior to the rest of us ignorant folk, perhaps its time to put pen to paper and use your excellent technical and diplomatic skills and write a book to educate the rest of us and show the world
the true gospel of 4 WD VWs ? |
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a1steaksauce
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2010
Posts: 612
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| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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| codemachinist wrote: |
| Oh man. You probably should have read that out loud to yourself before you posted that. |
Your point?
| geneL3c wrote: |
Since your knowledge and experience is so superior to the rest of us ignorant folk, perhaps its time to put pen to paper and use your excellent technical and diplomatic skills and write a book to educate the rest of us and show the world
the true gospel of 4 WD VWs ? |
More insults, cute.
Tell you what, since you’re so superior to me in internet searches and online articles go find some wartime pictures of this alleged vehicle. Better still, go find me a single one that exists today.
As to why I, or the others I work with, not writing a book? Simple. Why should we waste our time writing about these vehicles when our time is far better spent restoring these vehicles.
Thanks for the laughs though...it’s been fun I’ll admit...we at the shop all got a chuckle. The samba never disappoints in demonstrating why it’s a laughing stock among kdf enthusiasts lol. |
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EverettB 
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69829
Location: Phoenix Metro
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geneL3c
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2007
Posts: 296
Location: Bridgehampton,NY
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| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:22 pm Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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| Everett, I for one do not consider thesamba as a laughing stock as Mr. Steaksauce does and I would venture a guess that many of us rely on the constructive and supportive comments by those participating in the forums. Not everyone is a self proclaimed expert and the mostly helpful answers to questions provide information not readily available through other sources. My association with VW goes back to my days starting as a line mechanic for a local dealer in 1967 and I've never had a better source for parts, information, services, or anything VW related anywhere else. |
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codemachinist
Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2018
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:02 pm Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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| Bruce wrote: |
Yet no wartime pictures exist of Typ 87, 92SS, or Schwimmwagens in North Africa.
The call is out to photo collectors. Post your pics of a Schwimmer or Typ 87 in N. Africa.
I can think of a good reason why they were never sent to N. Africa. Spare parts was a HUGE problem for Rommel. Hitler wouldn't send spare parts, instead he wanted those spare parts to be used to make more vehicles. It was hard enough for Rommel to get spares for just Kubels, the more complicated 4wd VWs would have had a much worse spare parts problem. |
I agree that Rommel couldn't get fuel let alone spare parts.
Been digging through military history forums for your request and I think I found a suspect. Putting a link to the post. What is your take on it? |
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a1steaksauce
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2010
Posts: 612
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:17 am Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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| geneL3c wrote: |
| Everett, I for one do not consider thesamba as a laughing stock as Mr. Steaksauce does and I would venture a guess that many of us rely on the constructive and supportive comments by those participating in the forums. |
Only among kdf enthusiasts. vw people don't seem to get the fact that those that are in the field of wartime vw's are not typical vw people and do not have any vw's after 1946. Heck now that I think about it I'm the only one in attendance at the Kubel Korp events that actually owns a post war vw lol. Those that collect kdf vehicles consider themselves to be a separate section of the vw hobby. It explains why you never see any kdf vehicles at traditional vw shows when there are quite a few of them stateside.
I mean no disrespect to the samba as I actually use it for various things. But the reason why traditional kdf collectors stay away is pretty much exactly this. Heck I can remember another thread where another kdf collector stuck his head out to correct someone on the color of schwimmer/kubel rims and the style of the dash pods then all sorts of vw people began to chime in with incorrect information because they saw it in some authored "books". Wartime photos are the best source of information over any authors writings. And this applies across the board in regards to wartime vehicles. Heck most of the authored books concerning the sdkfz 251 get it wrong too lol. |
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geneL3c
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2007
Posts: 296
Location: Bridgehampton,NY
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:46 am Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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| My grandfather used to say, " it's not what you say, it's how you say it ". A little respect for interested parties who don't have your experience and expertise would go a long way instead of demeaning us for our lack of knowledge. I've attended quite a few military and aviation events with our 1950 Split Window dressed as a " captured " vehicle to display with our aircraft and have never been dressed down for not having an authentic, surviving original. The German re-enactors mostly have reproduction vehicles as well. I was surprised to hear you admit that you go to Kuble Korps events with a post war vehicle, original no doubt ? Regards, Gene |
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a1steaksauce
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2010
Posts: 612
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:31 am Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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| geneL3c wrote: |
| My grandfather used to say, " it's not what you say, it's how you say it ". A little respect for interested parties who don't have your experience and expertise would go a long way instead of demeaning us for our lack of knowledge. I've attended quite a few military and aviation events with our 1950 Split Window dressed as a " captured " vehicle to display with our aircraft and have never been dressed down for not having an authentic, surviving original. The German re-enactors mostly have reproduction vehicles as well. I was surprised to hear you admit that you go to Kuble Korps events with a post war vehicle, original no doubt ? Regards, Gene |
Sorry, but I know I’m an ahole that’s rough around the edges and could care less. I’m not here to win any popularity contests. I’ll be the first person to say “well that’s a dumb way of doing it no wonder it failed” but I’ll also be the first one to say “ok here’s an idea of how to correct it going forward.” Lol
Actually German reenactors are probably the largest demographic of kubel and schwimmer owners. And again I speak from experience as a public display is where I first saw a real schwimmer and real kubels running around. I got into the reenacting hobby and proceeded to see even more real vehicles as a result. I’ve always suggested on this forum to anyone wanting to see real wartime vws that a public display ww2 event is a good way to do so. The event in Rockford Illinois this weekend usually brings out quite a few vehicles.
And never did I say that I take my post war vws to kubel korps, because I don’t. I just said that kdf owners don’t generally own anything that isn’t from the wartime kdf era. The fact that I own a bay window is unheard of in the club lol. |
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geneL3c
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2007
Posts: 296
Location: Bridgehampton,NY
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:22 am Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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Obviously I have never met you and don't know anything about what you do, but I would guess that you know a great deal about vehicles that interest myself and others.
My area of interest is Liaison and Trainer aircraft of WWII and as an Aviation Maintenance Technician / Inspector I have gotten many requests for information and documentation that I've been more than willing to share with the community. Some of the questions are obviously made out of ignorance of the subject, but that's how it sometimes starts. I've been pleasantly surprised from time to time that these same individuals stumble across information that I've never seen.
My Typ 87 replica project actually started out as a Typ 82E, but when I saw factory photos of the Typ 87 Kommandeurwagon with Kronprinz wheels and sunroof, I changed my mind because I thought it would be more interesting in desert camouflage since our airplane is in North African theatre markings and camouflage.
Whether or not the Typ 87 served with the DAK isn't really of much importance to me as I don't plan to claim it as an original WWII survivor, only a vehicle of interest in a public environment, artistic license if you will.
Codemachinist has found a photo of what may be a Typ 87 or Typ 92SS with SS license plates, sunroof, widened fenders and Kronprinz wheels. This may answer the question of whether they actually went into production.
From the photos I have of the 92SS, it is unclear whether it is 2WD or 4WD, any thoughts ? |
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a1steaksauce
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2010
Posts: 612
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:34 am Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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| geneL3c wrote: |
Codemachinist has found a photo of what may be a Typ 87 or Typ 92SS with SS license plates, sunroof, widened fenders and Kronprinz wheels. This may answer the question of whether they actually went into production.
From the photos I have of the 92SS, it is unclear whether it is 2WD or 4WD, any thoughts ? |
She’s on a kubel pan for sure given the ride height. The rims don’t appear to be wider nor do the fenders.
The locale is completely in question however given the poor quality of the picture....Africa, Russian steps, Greece, Italy...hard to tell.
Officer is wearing a rubber great coat and, what I assume is the enlisted man also in the pic, is wearing an earlier style cap. |
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codemachinist
Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2018
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:40 pm Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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| a1steaksauce wrote: |
| geneL3c wrote: |
Codemachinist has found a photo of what may be a Typ 87 or Typ 92SS with SS license plates, sunroof, widened fenders and Kronprinz wheels. This may answer the question of whether they actually went into production.
From the photos I have of the 92SS, it is unclear whether it is 2WD or 4WD, any thoughts ? |
She’s on a kubel pan for sure given the ride height. The rims don’t appear to be wider nor do the fenders.
The locale is completely in question however given the poor quality of the picture....Africa, Russian steps, Greece, Italy...hard to tell.
Officer is wearing a rubber great coat and, what I assume is the enlisted man also in the pic, is wearing an earlier style cap. |
Gene was referring to the picture in this post that I failed to link in the post from before.
http://histomil.com/viewtopic.php?t=3918&start=5390#p112435 |
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codemachinist
Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2018
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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Looks like a Command Chauffeur for a military police unit.
The person looks young and has no rank on his collar making him an E-1 or E-2, a common rank for non flag drivers.
The unit identity marker on the hood looks like a motorized MP symbol with the command pennant(not100% on the pennant)
Things that look out of place to me though are the Electrical pole, the fencing, and his boots(but it could be the lighting angle. |
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sled
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2005
Posts: 6179
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:44 pm Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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| codemachinist wrote: |
| a1steaksauce wrote: |
| geneL3c wrote: |
Codemachinist has found a photo of what may be a Typ 87 or Typ 92SS with SS license plates, sunroof, widened fenders and Kronprinz wheels. This may answer the question of whether they actually went into production.
From the photos I have of the 92SS, it is unclear whether it is 2WD or 4WD, any thoughts ? |
She’s on a kubel pan for sure given the ride height. The rims don’t appear to be wider nor do the fenders.
The locale is completely in question however given the poor quality of the picture....Africa, Russian steps, Greece, Italy...hard to tell.
Officer is wearing a rubber great coat and, what I assume is the enlisted man also in the pic, is wearing an earlier style cap. |
Gene was referring to the picture in this post that I failed to link in the post from before.
http://histomil.com/viewtopic.php?t=3918&start=5390#p112435 |
are you referring to this photo? It is highly unlikely that photo is from the war as the rear view mirror is from a 1953 and later beetle. how did It end up on a beetle in the early 40's? highly unlikely... Front bumper almost looks like a late -52 and later blade, not a 'banana' bumper. The tires also appear to be radials, not bias ply. Doesn't look early 1940's to me?
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drive your split. |
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a1steaksauce
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2010
Posts: 612
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:02 pm Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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Sled is on point! Lol.
Yeah that’s a reenactor with a later beetle. I’ve seen that car before at an event.
These damn reenactors I swear lol
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geneL3c
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2007
Posts: 296
Location: Bridgehampton,NY
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:04 am Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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I don't question Sled's challenge to the authenticity of the ( alleged ) Typ 87 photo, he obviously is on point with his detailed observation of inconsistencies
in specific details. What I have trouble with is how a potentially questionable photo wound up in a site titled " Bundesarchive photos 1933 to 1945 ". Since most will agree that photos ( theoretically ) provide the best proof of authenticity, it is clear that depending on photographic " proof " is in itself suspect ? Without sounding maudlin, I think it is proof positive that forums such as this are an important part of our interests in historical vehicles and the desire to get useable and correct information. |
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geneL3c
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2007
Posts: 296
Location: Bridgehampton,NY
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:07 am Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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| BTW, Mr. Steaksauce, is that you with Schwimmer ? |
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EverettB
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Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69829
Location: Phoenix Metro
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splitjunkie
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 4095
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:19 am Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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| codemachinist wrote: |
Also there is one picture I was able to find. I can't confirm it because the door is open on the car so while it has the title of being in africa it doesn't have the little bob thing over the driver side front fender. The officer in the picture looks more like an SS than a DAK to me. The car doesn't have a rag top either. I thought all the Type 87's were ragtop. I claim no expertise in the matter though, just observations.
http://world-war-2.wikia.com/wiki/Type_87_Kommandeurwagen?file=Type_87_Africa.jpg |
I'm no war time expert but this picture is not even close to being labeled correctly. I have this picture in a book and you can clearly see the men standing next to the beetles and they all look like Ivan Hurst clones. They are British soldiers standing next to beetles on klubel pans. They are post war production that was restarted by the British. You can also see a lot of bomb damage to the front of the factory.
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Chris
You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld |
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geneL3c
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2007
Posts: 296
Location: Bridgehampton,NY
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:27 am Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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| I have the same picture in a book somewhere and if memory serves me, it was labeled something like " post war Typ 82E Beetles awaiting delivery to occupation forces". I guess the photo serves many masters ? |
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splitjunkie
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Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 4095
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing |
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| a1steaksauce wrote: |
| geneL3c wrote: |
If you'll take the time to reference and read through Chapter # 12, " Typ 87 Kommandeurwagen ", you will find a full description of its manufacture and use.
A total of 382 built, most going to the Afrika Korps. Thanks for providing the supporting information you said did not exist.
Congratulations on finally doing your research. |
Yes, beetles built on the kubel platform. That much the author got right. There was never any 4wd kubel variants so his claim about that information was completely incorrect.
Had vw possibly made 3 prototype 4wd beetles during wartime? Perhaps. But they sure as heck didn’t enter into production on the vehicle. Again you’re showing your complete lack of knowledge of the differences between the kubel and schwimmer driveline. to think that simply making it work would be an easy affair is wrong. Masssive tooling would have to be made to enter that vehicle into any sort of assembly line to produce the numbers claimed. I can’t even begin to think of all the reinforcing that would be required to the kubel/beetle pan to use 4wd setup from a schwimmer.
382 vehicles supposedly shipped to North Africa and not one single picture exists. Bravo on your proof. Books very rarely get kdf vehicles right. |
According to Chris Barber's book there was indeed a project to design and build a 4wd kubelwagen. There were only a handful built but there is ample documentation to prove that they were built and tested. There is no evidence that they ever made it to production but there was a project and there were prototypes built.
As far as the modification to make a 4wd kubel chassis, they aren't as complicated as you would think. The gear shift rod was mounted on top of the tunnel leaving room for the drive shaft. The Napoleon's hat was reinforced with a thick metal flange to accept the bolt on front differential housing. I saw the Komanderwagen up close and personal last year in the VW museum and even crawled under and snapped a few photos of the front end. The VW chassis is very simple and versatile in it's design and lent itself to these mashups between Beetle, Klubel and Schwimmer.
Barber's book is probably the most accurate one out there as he was given access to documentation from Porsche and VW that most others have not.
According to his book, two type 86's, 4wd Kubels were built and tested in '39. They were were based on the type 62 which was a pre-production Kubel. In 1940 they were rebuilt using type 82 front and rear axles and 16" wheels down from the 18"s on the type 62 but kept the 4wd and were designated the type 87. Their chassis numbers were 39/113 and 39/114. A short time later four more type 87's were ordered. Chassis numbers 39/133 - 39/136.
The type 87 is a 4wd Kubel. The type 287 is the Kommandeurwagen. He states that "some hundreds were built during the war".
I trust the info in this book more than any other. I also tend to trust documentation and pictures of the era which this book is based. I have known plenty of "experts" who have "been doing it for years" who claim to know it all only to be proven wrong later when the appropriate documentation comes to light.
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Chris
You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld |
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