Electrical help needed battery lead blows fuse

[Maabus]

Hi I'm new to the bug world, but so far it has been fun working on one, up until now.

I got a 68 bug for my son's first car, and are in the process of restoring it. The car ran fine but there are a few issues here and there. There were some electrical issues like the hazards coming on when putting on the left turn signal. I was going to try to figure out the electrical issues and fix just those but the wires were so old and grimy I couldn't tell what color most wires were, and the PO had some weird splicing done. I figured it would be better to just replace all of the wiring.

I got a complete wire kit, and got everything ran, and we hooked everything up. The PO had a 25A fuse on the wire that goes from the positive post on the battery to the B+ (I believe) on the voltage regulator. When I turned the ignition to the on position this fuse popped. I unplugged everything except for the wires at the voltage regulator, generator warning light, and ignition, but the fuse popped again, but this time I only had a 20A fuse. I tried one last time, but this time I disconnected the wire from the voltage regulator to the starter, and the fuse popped again.

I'm running out of things to disconnect, and I'm not sure what would cause this to fuse to blow with nothing connected.

I'm familiar with electrical equipment, but i'm not skilled so any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!

[bluebus86]

[David_nc_72std]

To start with, there should not be any wires from the voltage regulator to the starter. The only connections to the starter are from the ignition switch and the battery (+) terminal.

Here is the wiring diagram for a 1968, if you don't have one:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/bug_6869.jpg

If it popped a 25A fuse immediately, sounds like something is either shorting to ground, or you made an incorrect connection somewhere in the rewiring. I'd start by pulling all the fuses from the fuse panel, just to eliminate anything in a fused circuit, although any problem in the fused circuits should already have blown a fuse. Looking at the wiring diagram, there are only a couple of connections directly off the ignition switch, one to the fuse panel, and the other to the wiper switch, so you could try isolating the problem to one or the other. Do be careful that you actually connected the wire from the ignition to the wiper switch to terminal 31, terminal 31b is a connection to ground.

In reference to the above post, a better spot for the main fuse may be between the voltage regulator and the main wire to the dash area, that doesn't carry the charging current for the battery. DO NOT eliminate the fuse until you find out whats blowing it, something drawing enough current to immediately blow a 25A fuse is likely to burn up some wiring if left unfused

Edit: My error, was looking at wiring diagram wrong for the part about the wiper wiring.

[bluebus86]

[Maabus]

Thanks everyone, I don't think i explained it well.

I completely rewired everything so all of the wire is normal now except for the wire with the fuse attached to it. Also the ignition, and signal switch wires are stock.

I'm not sure that it actually has anything to do with my generator at this point as I'm not trying to start the car. I just turn the ignition to the on position... the one before starting the engine. This is when the fuse blows. I can't even try to start the car to fire up the generator.

I'm at a lost as to where there can be a short... all the wiring is brand new, and nothing is really plugged in at this time.

I have attached some pics to show what I'm talking about.

Here is the wire with the fuse. This is the only wire from the PO left. It did work before, and i didn't mess with it when I ran the other wires.

Here is the voltage regulator. The black wire with the yellow is the wire with the fuse. These are the only wires that are connected.

I tried disconnecting the wire to the starter to see if that might be it. It is the disconnected red wire. the black wire running up from the thick black wire is the defroster wire that is not connected, and is taped up.

This is all that is attached to the fuse box for now. I have the ignition cables plugged into port 30 on the light switch. The black ground from the ignition switch is on the first post and the pigtail is plugged into the bottom tang on the spedo, and the black wire on the second post is from the main wire harness. The white stripped are the for the rear turn signals i believe. The blue, and blue/green are hooked up to the warning bulbs

Here is the ignition black/red that goes to the starter wire (50 in the wiring diagram) i disconnected in the earlier picture.

Finally here are my generator connections. The main harness was short due to how i had it pulled through my firewall so i had to extend the wires. They are all wrapped so the should not be shorting anything.

My next test was to try disconnecting everything from the voltage regulator except for the wires on B+, and have the wire with the fuse connect to the batter post without the other positive wire, and see what happens.

[David_nc_72std]

[Q-Dog]

What instructions are you using to do this? You mention a black wire to ground. Black wires are NEVER ground on a VW.

_________________
Brian

'69 Dune Buggy
'69 Beetle Convertible
'70 Beetle

[Maabus]

I'm probably calling the wire the wrong thing. In the diagram it is the black wire that goes to the signal switch (H1 and has 15 on it), and then to the second fuse from the left. From there there is a thin black wire that goes in between K1, and K4 on the speedo. I just assumed this was ground since the other two ignition wires are red.

I got the wiring harness from Jbugs, and I'm following their installation video.


I basically have everything connected in this video except for the defroster wire which is taped up.
I wired everything starting at 4:28 in this video. I also have the wires from 5:38 connected to the coil, and generator and oil pressure switch. Then i have the wires from 6:07 - 6:43 connected.
https://www.jbugs.com/product/video-beetle-wiring-harness-installation-main.html

This is the wire i disconnected from the starter in my last test that still blew the fuse at 3:47 - 4:50
https://www.jbugs.com/product/video-beetle-wiring-harness-installation-rear.html

Then I am working from this video starting at 2:32 - 2:48. The wire that i called ground is at 2:50 - 3:00. i have the thin brown ground wire connected at 3:00. I do not have any other wires connected after this point.
https://www.jbugs.com/product/video-beetle-wiring-harness-installation-dome-dash.html

EDIT: @David
Yes the black wire is connected to 15 on the coil. Thanks David, I guess i was calling it the wrong thing... It is the 12v wire. I thought the red would have been voltage, and in this case the black would be ground... i forgot about the actual ground wire being connected to the spedo mounting bolt.


Edit 2: I guess I'm really at this point I'm just trying to test the ignition switch without anything else being connected. As soon as i put the ignition to the first position (On) that fuse pops. I'm fine with the wire not having a fuse.. it just concerns me that it was working before. Could it be that because it's new wiring it is more efficient and is drawing more current than the old wires so now it is blowing?

[Maabus]

Sorry for the double post...

Ok i figured out which wire is popping the fuse. It is the black wire on the second terminal post that is supposed to be going to post 15 on the coil.

I went through and unplugged EVERYTHING except for the ignition wires (2 red, black with pigtail, and ground) and the cable with the fuse. Then i plugged everything back in one at a time testing the ignition each time. As soon as i plugged in that black wire the fuse popped. I unplugged the wire and tried again, and it worked fine.

Now to figure out why this wire is tripping the fuse.

EDIT:

I did verify that it is the coil wire. I disconnected it from the coil side, and plugged the wire back onto the fuse box, and it did not trip the fuse.

So now that it is the coil I'm not sure what the issue is. I did not touch the coil other than put the reverse switch wire on, and plug in the black wire from the main harness to post 15. the distributor wires, and the other black wire i left alone.

Here is my coil. The red wire on the left goes to the distributor, and post 1. The black wire with the blue cover goes to the switch? on the engine (you can see it in the top right of the next picture... i don't know what this switch is for.

top post 15 has a black wire with red cover that goes to the distributor, the middle post goes to the inline fuse for the reverse switch, the bottom post is the wire that blows the fuse.

[bluebus86]

ok, you dont have a lot hooked up, so that makes find the short easy!

Note on the schematic, the power route. From battery to headlight switch first, then key switch, after key switch is were fault should be, could be inside wiring short in the sterring column, After ignition switch, black wire goes to fuse panel, and energizes the first two fuses, and feeds unfused power to engine bay at the spark coil, from coil, thewire is daisy chained to carburetor cut off solenoid and, electric choke, In a separate parallel chain off the spark coil it goes thru an inline fuse, back up light switch on the tranny, and the back up light bulb.

The unfused power is likely the source of problem, test to see if this is true by removing the first two fuses, left side as seen on Bentley schematic.
With both fuses removed, see if fuse blows with ignition on. if not, then problem is from the wire to motor bay and back.

Do a visual inspect of the coil wires to carb, and back up light circuit to the inline fuse. make sure they are not chaffed, and that they are hooked up correct.

I see lots of taped wrapped splices. ideally solder them and wrap with heat shrink tube. solder before they get oily, corroded, solder only sticks well to clean wire. also electric tape can come undone, gets sucked into fan, clogs head and cylinder cooling, oil cooling.

Bug On!
_________________
Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information

Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022

[SBD]

It looks like you might have the wires for the distributor reversed where they connect to the coil. Turning on the ignition would then send power through the points and straight to ground.
_________________
"Just $99 down and $64 a month for 36 months buys you a brand new Volkswagen Beetle!"

[sb001]

Your distributor wiring is messed up.
From the looks of it, it appears you have an aftermarket electronic ignition module in your distributor, which would explain a red and a black wire coming from the distributor. On a factory-style points system, you would only have a green condensor wire coming off the distributor and attached to the #1 (ground) post on your coil.
If you do indeed have an electronic ignition module installed inside your distributor, I believe your red and black wires coming off the distibutor are connected to the wrong posts on your coil. The RED wire should be connected to your #15 (positive) post on the coil, and the black wire should be connected to the #1 (negative) post on your coil. (In this case, black is indeed a ground wire but only because it is on an aftermarket ignition module.)
Try just simply pulling both those wires off your coil and then see if you can turn the key without popping the fuse.
Also, the other wire coming off your #1 (negative) post on the coil that goes to the "switch" you are wondering about, is wrong. That is the POSITIVE lead to the fuel cutoff solenoid on your carburetor, and should be attached to the #15 (positive) post on your coil.
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.

1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor

[sb001]

BTW, IF you do indeed have an electronic ignition module in your distributor, and they were hooked up backward at the coil, then thank God that fuse was there otherwise you would have fried your ignition module when you turned the key.
I would verfiy first that those wires do indeed come from an electronic module inside your distributor (just pop the cap and take a look) and then be absolutely sure those wires are connected to the correct posts on your coil- I have never owned electronic ignition moduels, but from everything I have read the red wire is the positive lead to #15 on the coil, and the black wire is the negative lead that attaches to #1 post on the coil. Make absolutely sure of this before you plug everything back in and try turning the key!
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.

1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor

[Maabus]

Thanks guys!

I"m not sure if it is an electronic ignition module. Here are pics of the inside of the distributor. I'm going to assume that little box the black and red wires are going to is an electronic module. Hopefully you guys can tell from these pics.

Weird thing is I'm pretty sure this is how it was wired before I got to it, and it was working... but then again the PO had all kinds of thing jimmy rigged and spliced into things so maybe he had wires reversed, and I "fixed" them... either that or i accidentally unplugged them when removing the wiring harness, and inadvertently put them back on... but I'm pretty positive i did not touch those wires.

I did think it was weird that the red wire was on what should be the negative side of the coil, but figured it must have been correct.

Here is a top view

This is where the black and red wire come in

another view

So if it is an electric ignition, i should just have to change the black and red wires?

@sb001 you mention the wire to the fuel cutoff solenoid is also on the wrong post. I'm assuming I'll need to get a dual post adapter for one of the posts on 15 as there are only 3 posts, but i have 4 positive wires...
1)Reverse cable to inline fuse
2)positive cable to distributor
3)Main wire harness to fuse box
4)positive cable to fuel cutoff selonoid


@bluebus86
Thanks for the tips...
The backup light wires are brand new so they should not be chaffed. As far as i can tell they are hooked up correctly. My wires are all connected using butt connectors. I just have electrical tape wrapped around the connectors to make extra sure they either don't come out of the connectors, or accidently contact something somehow, and to make sure water or anything else did not contact the wires.

[bluebus86]

You have a Pertronix points eliminator, a good thing, I run them, but evidently it was wired reversed polarity. also the wires inside the dizzy appear to have not enough slack and maybe rubbing on the rotor pick up /shaft. Pull some more wire into the dizzy to give slack and make sure the wires can't rub on the rotating parks

here linked below are the Pertronix instructions, you have the Ignitor, 12 volt, negative ground type.

http://www.pertronix.com/support/manuals/

Bug On!

PS......

Never run the pertronix with all four spark wires removed, if you run without any spark plugs wires, the pertronix will burn out, it must have a load when operating. thus when doing compression tests for example, with all four spark plugs removed, ensure to first disconnect the red power wire for the Pertronix from the coil then it will be safe to crank the motor with the spark plugs removed.

also please see link below regarding engine fires and safety wires, all Bugs need this addressed.
_________________
Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information

Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022

[Maabus]

Thanks bluebus!

And I'm definitely going to add the safety wire. I'm going to try to slide heat tube over the connectors or just redo the wire to get rid of the electrical tape.

I just tried removing the wires from the coil to the distributor, and reconnected the wire that was tripping the fuse and it worked this time. I'll try connecting the distributor wires to the correct posts and see what happens.

Am i correct about having to have 4 posts on the positive side of the coil?

[sb001]

[bluebus86]

[Maabus]

Thanks everyone! You guys are AWESOME!

I think that was the problem. I swapped the distributor wires on the coil, and now I'm able to turn over the starter. Unfortunately I was not able to start the bug, but I think it is actually out of gas. I had pulled the gas tank out to clean up the trunk, and run the brake wires, and there was barely anything in the tank. I'm actually lucky I had gotten the bug home. Tomorrow I'll get some gas and see if it fires back up, and then finish wiring up the rest of the bug!

@sb001
No there is no wire coming off the solenoid. I'm assuming this is the automatic choke?

I should have a wire coming off the solenoid going to this right?


on a side note, what is this arm with the teeth for? Mine just kind of hangs there and doesn't seem like it will actually do anything. It is at the top in the center to the left of the spring. The pin rests on the teeth.

Oh and here is our bug!

We replaced all the rubber... just have to finish the window and door rubber. Then really just extra detail like new carpet.

[bluebus86]

the arm with the teeth is part of the choke, it flops around, but it also drives the little arm one way, and that little arms is what moves the choke butterfly valve. I dont see a solenoid on the stand alone carb image, some Bugs used no solenoid. but photos of ypur motor show you have one. you should hear it click when energized. if solenoid equiped, that solenoid must be energized to run car, the solenoid is an antirun on valve. if it fails, car wont run.

Suggest you get a Bentley Factory Service Manual, many for sale in want ads, or buy new. it details the workings of the carb, and will explain the operation, choke etc.. much better than I can, has very good illistrations. Used copies are often sold for 40 bucks or less Best investment you can make for the Bug me thinks. Be sure you get correct version for you year model, year models covered are printed on the cover!

Bug On!
_________________
Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information

Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022