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Towel Rail Horizontally Opposed
Joined: April 15, 2005 Posts: 4622 Location: SE CR IA US NA PE
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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:58 pm Post subject: Re: Why black paint? |
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John Muir recommended painting your tin all different colors, so you'd smile when you had to open the lid to work on it. That stands to make as much of a difference as anything else in this thread. _________________ 1974 Thing -- under the knife
1967 Beetle -- spring/summer/fall driver
1996 Subaru OBW (EJ22, 5-speed, AWD) -- winter car, 3-seasons "don't feel like biking today" car
049 > 070 > 053 > 009 |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26787 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:01 pm Post subject: Re: Why black paint? |
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Color coding of engine parts is underutilized.
About all we get is different color coils, but so much more could be done! |
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rugblaster Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2016 Posts: 1171 Location: San Angelo, Texas
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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:13 pm Post subject: Re: Why black paint? |
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I bet Klaus Winkler would have kicked John Muir's hippie ass!!! _________________ '69 Karmy, '69 Camper, Meyers clone, '65 drag bug, 10.78 @ 128 (sold it) '51 Dodge farm truck,
'09 MB E350 '18 MB E400, '65 Plymouth Valiant convertible and a '19 Ford F250 King Ranch (nicer, but dirty, farm truck)
VWoA factory trained line tech 75 till 90 or so
ASE Master Certification
VWoA Assoc. of Quality Technicians inductee (One of 25 in the five state southwest region)
La Confrerie des Chevaliers du Tastevin (San Angelo Chapter)
TCU ......GO FROGS!!!!!! |
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002 Posts: 4394 Location: Brew City
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:35 am Post subject: Re: Why black paint? |
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Onceler wrote: |
[email protected] wrote: |
Q-Dog wrote: |
rugblaster wrote: |
And then we have thermal conduction. Try this, get 2 identical green bean cans, preferably the ones with a tin coating inside, and paint one on the outside with a thin coat of flat black paint. Bring a medium saucepan of water to a boil and pour the water into both cans at equal amounts. Place the cans 20 cm apart. Place a lab grade thermometer into each can and observe the rate at which each can loses heat. Why are they not the same? |
Do this experiment with a high output fan blowing on the cans, otherwise it is useless to this discussion. |
WHY oh WHY does everyone in these discussions insist on using google and quoting scientific research websites instead of just taking an engine and running with black sheetmetal and then with chrome or green or gray or red or purple and then reporting back? ALL of this information you can google is 100% useless in this discussion.
Fully enclosed aircooled VW engines act differently than airplane VW aircooled engines that act differently than open ended vw aircooled engines and they certainly act different than tin cans with boiling water in them.
Come on guys, I am all for a spirited discussion but most of this info is just flat out wrong. |
I enjoy these debates also, keeps things interesting when I'm taking a break. I think the experiment you propose would be relatively easy, especially if a company could buy parts at cost. Just order a chrome tin kit, collect data, then paint the kit black. Now, who do we know that builds a lot of engines...hmmmm |
Actually....it's already been done and proven. While everyone's theromdynamics properties and atomic photon speeches are technically correct, the net effect on engine temp has been proven to be less than a degree. I did not do the testing personally but know multiple people who have. _________________ Please "LIKE" us on facebook to see what we are working on.
https://www.facebook.com/mofoco?ref=ts&fref=ts
www.mofoco.com
Cylinder Head Reference Sheet |
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002 Posts: 4394 Location: Brew City
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:36 am Post subject: Re: Why black paint? |
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Onceler wrote: |
rugblaster wrote: |
We didn't have Google in 1975. There was, however, a fellow named Klaus Winkler from West Germany who was a product development engineer for VWoA. He had an office in the VW, Porsche and Audi training center in San Antonio, Texas. While I was attending classes at that training center I became acquainted with Mr. Winkler and we had been discussing the performance aspects of VW motors. I had just started a race car project of my own. I recall him telling me why the cooling tins, cylinder defectors and the valve covers were painted black. We had been talking about chrome aftermarket tinwork. People will believe, with all the evidence to the contrary, anything they want to believe. If painting everything black made my oil temp 5 degrees less, I'm down with that.
The idea the Germans painted everything black by accident or because black paint is cheap is ludicrous. If that were the case every barn in the country would be black. They are not, they are red. (red ocher) I looked that up on Google. |
Working for VW doesn't mean he's an authority on the subject. Could have been HR making comments during the new hire orientation, that he took as gospel as a noob. Technician level knowledge doesn't require R&D. Just blind faith sometimes |
Well, we all know that car manufacturers have our best interests at heart and would never lie or do anything just to save money, right? _________________ Please "LIKE" us on facebook to see what we are working on.
https://www.facebook.com/mofoco?ref=ts&fref=ts
www.mofoco.com
Cylinder Head Reference Sheet |
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timcurtis67 Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2013 Posts: 87 Location: Carlisle PA
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:57 am Post subject: Re: Why black paint? |
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I'm just hoping this subject can get to 10 pages long.... _________________ 67 Desert Fox Spoiler |
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Lingwendil Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009 Posts: 3988 Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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vwracerdave Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004 Posts: 15307 Location: Deep in the 405
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:52 pm Post subject: Re: Why black paint? |
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[email protected] wrote: |
Actually....it's already been done and proven. While everyone's theromdynamics properties and atomic photon speeches are technically correct, the net effect on engine temp has been proven to be less than a degree. I did not do the testing personally but know multiple people who have. |
Yes one of the big VW "guru's" that no longer posts here, and everybody worshiped and praised said the same thing that the color you paint the sheet metal won't make 1 degree difference in the oil temps or cylinder head temps. _________________ 2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63
Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7544 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:15 pm Post subject: Re: Why black paint? |
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I remember years ago, Jake Raby saying how he liked to leave iron barrels to rust a bit.
The theory being that the rust starts getting rough, and maybe even flaky, giving an increase in overall surface area.
Also,
This is entirely a WAG,
But,
Wouldn't -any- paint be an insulator?
If you want your metal, be it iron, aluminum, mag, etc. to shed heat,
Don't coat it in an insulating blanket of paint! _________________ Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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Max Welton Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2003 Posts: 10697 Location: Black Forest, CO
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12730 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:39 pm Post subject: Re: Why black paint? |
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Yes paint can definitely be an insulator, that is why a "thin" coat of flat black is always specified. Rust too is an insulator by the way. |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76935 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:44 pm Post subject: Re: Why black paint? |
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Everyone knows the green engines are not ripe.
And the red ones are the fastest.
_________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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Splitdog Samba Split Personality
Joined: February 16, 2004 Posts: 4125 Location: Planet VW
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:39 pm Post subject: Re: Why black paint? |
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And the white ones are racist..... _________________ CH³NO²
Z = z² + C
Der Blitzkrieg Kafers
#notacallooker |
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Onceler Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2010 Posts: 1647 Location: Indiana
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:52 pm Post subject: Re: Why black paint? |
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I think bob Hoover was a black paint propagandist too, but I really don't blame him though. If you're crazy enough to fly using a VW motor, you've got to hold on to some superstitions _________________ 1972 Karmann Ghia |
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neil68 Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2007 Posts: 3440 Location: Calgary, Canada
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:46 pm Post subject: Re: Why black paint? |
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The Kübelwagen, Schwimmwagen, etc, had several engine tin colours: beige, brown, green, grey, etc. Seems like they worked just fine, even in warm environments such as North Africa, etc.
Engine tin directs cool air to the correct locations...can't see how colour can affect that, especially in a closed engine bay. Someone chromed an OEM doghouse shroud years ago (couldn't find the thread) and saw no change in operating temperatures. Seems chrome shrouds got a bad rep mostly due to poor design...not the fact that they were chromed. _________________ Neil.
Der Kleiner Rennwagens
68 Beetle 2332 cc, 204 WHP
12.5 seconds @ 107 mph
Dynojet Test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9B_H3eklAo |
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fastone Samba Member
Joined: August 16, 2010 Posts: 211 Location: So Cal
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:23 pm Post subject: Re: Why black paint? |
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timcurtis67 wrote: |
I'm just hoping this subject can get to 10 pages long.... |
Only 10 I'am sure it will more then that... |
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anthracitedub Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2007 Posts: 3241 Location: Michigan
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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:56 am Post subject: Re: Why black paint? |
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Yeah, it’ll do better than 10 for sure. We haven’t even touched on paint color of the fan itself... because I heard if you paint the fan a deep shade of blue it creates an extra cooling effect on all incoming air... also if the paint is laid out smooth, no peel... it will have increased air flow. |
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DeathBySnuSnu Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2012 Posts: 1183 Location: MS
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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:31 am Post subject: Re: Why black paint? |
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I dont know what color my tins are now.
Gave them away 15+ years ago.
_________________
modok wrote: |
And look at the SHAPE of the curves, just smooth, like gods own slingshot. . |
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nextgen Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004 Posts: 6027 Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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DeathBySnuSnu Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2012 Posts: 1183 Location: MS
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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:32 am Post subject: Re: Why black paint? |
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I ride in blue jeans.
The 2110 that was in it ran cool enough to touch solidly.
This is its first summer with the 2387. It does run hotter. You can touch it and/or brush up against the heads and cylinders without getting burned, but it is too warm to leave your hand on like before.
The insides are heat insulating ceramic coated.
The outside of the heads are heat transfer ceramic coated. Supposedly to be a 15%increase in thermal transfer. No real data to back that up.
The headers are what will get you. The exhaust is hot hot, so the pipes are killer. The lightest brush up against will burn you.
So you have to wade through the headers to get on it. I did put wrap and covers over the gotcha parts.
Overall it is less hot to ride than an air cooled harley.......as long as you are moving. But stopped you are trapped between the intakes and can not stick a leg out to get away from the heat. _________________
modok wrote: |
And look at the SHAPE of the curves, just smooth, like gods own slingshot. . |
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