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Driving question for all you Type 4 owners
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jlrftype7
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:26 pm    Post subject: Driving question for all you Type 4 owners Reply with quote

The 411 and 412 are one model of the older VWs that I’ve never worked on or driven. Had a Type 3 Fastback for a few years as a DD, and had driven a few Squarebacks along side it; so I’m familiar with them.
How do the Type 4s with that extra power and different suspension compare in ride and usage to the Type 1 and 3s.
I’ve always been curious. Just wondering
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Driving question for all you Type 4 owners Reply with quote

jlrftype7 wrote:
The 411 and 412 are one model of the older VWs that I’ve never worked on or driven. Had a Type 3 Fastback for a few years as a DD, and had driven a few Squarebacks along side it; so I’m familiar with them.
How do the Type 4s with that extra power and different suspension compare in ride and usage to the Type 1 and 3s.
I’ve always been curious. Just wondering


MUCH better than any of the type 1s. The last of the strut superbeetles are close in handling....but rougher in ride because the beetle has shorter wheelbase.

The type 3 is close in handling and ride.....but still not as smooth. The type 4 is "normal car" handling.
It is easily the best handling and braking of all of the ACVWS.

The few issues it has....are a lot of body roll.....mostly in the front end due to the nose high attitude....though it still sticks to the pavement well. This goes away with some weight in the trunk.

The other issue it had....and mostly with age....is that the shock valving could use a little more rebound control in the front end.

The last issue that helps everything.....is get rid of the skinny tire. Early 411 came with 155's. I have never seen a 411 or 412 not running 185/75-15....and that was a major help.

Overall best riding, most comfortable, best visibility and driving condition of all of the ACVW. Most quiet as well.
Ray
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jlrftype7
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Driving question for all you Type 4 owners Reply with quote

Thanks Ray. It’s still a mystery to me that we as a Country bought lots of Type 3s but didn’t go for the Type4 with all those improvements.
I know price was a factor, but surely the styling won some folks over...( I always thought they looked sharp as a vehicle). Sort of a mirror to what SAAB was doing with the 99 and into their 900 later on.
As for the tires, I could see how 185s would make a difference Very Happy

I have read period pieces / articles in old magazines lamenting yet another Air Cooled engine from VW while everyone else had water cooled engines being offered, so there was some of that feeling for times as well. The Japanese were trying to make large swaths of market inroads at the time the Type 4s were coming out, so that didn’t help things either... Embarassed
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:36 am    Post subject: Re: Driving question for all you Type 4 owners Reply with quote

jlrftype7 wrote:
Thanks Ray. It’s still a mystery to me that we as a Country bought lots of Type 3s but didn’t go for the Type4 with all those improvements.
I know price was a factor, but surely the styling won some folks over...( I always thought they looked sharp as a vehicle). Sort of a mirror to what SAAB was doing with the 99 and into their 900 later on.
As for the tires, I could see how 185s would make a difference Very Happy

I have read period pieces / articles in old magazines lamenting yet another Air Cooled engine from VW while everyone else had water cooled engines being offered, so there was some of that feeling for times as well. The Japanese were trying to make large swaths of market inroads at the time the Type 4s were coming out, so that didn’t help things either... Embarassed


My description was also a bit short.

Other items that really round out the type 4 and make it better.

Its HUGE on the inside.....almost American car size in roominess.

The seats are easily the most comfortable among all air cooled cars. The next most comfortable seats I have found are the Dasher......short of modern seats like what are in my 2012 golf.

The heating system was fantastic.

The headlights were excellent.

The brakes as I mentioned were easily the best of any aircooled. Although the type 3 has the exact same brakes....the 411 and 412 sedans had a rear regulator that makes a serious difference as does the weight balance.

They were safer. They were some of the first front and rear crash cell cars. I have totalled 2. I can attest to that feature working.

Performance wise.....The problem with these cars that got them a reputation as underpowered.....was not that they were hideously underpowered by their 2300 lb weight....but that they were a little hard to keep tuned....and almost 100% in the US came with an automatic trans.

If you get to speak at length with people who owned these from new...when they were still fresh....and I am one of those.....ny first,1972 411 four door hax 55k miles on it......they were slightly slow off the line but driving speeds......cruise at 70 mph easily.....and passing speeds with the kickdown system....were excellent. The only other car that was close was the late type 3 fastback....and it could not cruise all day at high mach numbers like my type 4. I have owned them both.

The main issues with sluggishness were age on the engine andclack of tuning to compensate with the injection.....and that fact that virtually no one ever tunes up the auto trans.....by adjusting bands.....and adjusting main pressure/modulator for smoother shift points.

Then you get into improvements. Simple ones technically.

Lower the front end level...one inch. The wind wandering goes away. Most of the body roll goes away and this is helped by putting the same rear gas shocks on the sedan that the wagons came with.
Swap to better than factory brake pads.

If you do a rebuild.....a small bump in compression and a better than stock cam with some D-jet tuning....and you can easily drop the 0-60 time by 3 seconds.

Skip down to more serious mods.....the double rear sway bar....better front bushings....more castor adjustment in the front end.....the audi strut mod with better valving and a level stance.....and go to 5.5" rims and run 195/60-15 tires.....or at most 205/60-15......and the handling us greatly enhanced......ahout 200%.

Then you get into gray market cars that came with the 004 four speed. Thats a different animal. It already does about 10-11 seconds 0-60 with good tuning of the D-jet.

Ray
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Driving question for all you Type 4 owners Reply with quote

You nailed it on this one Ray I've been meaning to make a right up on mine car drove it for the first time in 6 years since I've owned the car it's been the best driving Volkswagen I've ever had but it didn't give it up easy I had to replace basically everything I've got the Audi shocks in the front and the Ford shocks in the rear 17 by 9 BMW rims 205 in the front 215 in the rear tires write up soon but I just been working so much Very Happy

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:14 am    Post subject: Re: Driving question for all you Type 4 owners Reply with quote

They were a very nice driving car, it's too bad VW discontinued them, you figure they used the same motor in the Vanagon up until 1983, they could have made the 412 at least that long. The following is a true story.

I worked at a Datsun dealer in 1976 and a woman traded in Her 412 Wagon for a brand new Datsun. I got to check it out and it was almost as new, I took it for a ride including the interstate and it was a wonderful drive, quiet and powerful. Well it was Winter and the 412 sat on our used car lot for several months when low and behold the same woman came back and repurchased her 412 and got rid of the Datsun. As a VW guy I was grinning ear to ear, except in front of my boss, of course. If they had continued with the 412 it most likely would have got the 2 Litre motor at some point sadly it was not to be.Her 412 was a pretty blue color.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Driving question for all you Type 4 owners Reply with quote

SHAKERHILLVW wrote:
They were a very nice driving car, it's too bad VW discontinued them, you figure they used the same motor in the Vanagon up until 1983, they could have made the 412 at least that long. The following is a true story.

I worked at a Datsun dealer in 1976 and a woman traded in Her 412 Wagon for a brand new Datsun. I got to check it out and it was almost as new, I took it for a ride including the interstate and it was a wonderful drive, quiet and powerful. Well it was Winter and the 412 sat on our used car lot for several months when low and behold the same woman came back and repurchased her 412 and got rid of the Datsun. As a VW guy I was grinning ear to ear, except in front of my boss, of course. If they had continued with the 412 it most likely would have got the 2 Litre motor at some point sadly it was not to be.Her 412 was a pretty blue color.


The interesting thing...engine wise...is that the 1.7L...has 82hp. More HP and tq than the 1.8L....but that was just and emissions thing. The 1.8L in the same trim as the 1.7L....could have have been pretty much right at 88-90hp.

The same car with the 4 speed...was also much nicer to drive in traffic than the automatic...but on the highway they are pretty much the same.

The 2.0L would have been nice and should have been right at 100 hp.
If emissions were left aside...the 1.7L could have been 90+ hp easily, the 1.8L right at 100 and the 2.0L at 110. Ray
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Lars S
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Driving question for all you Type 4 owners Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:


The interesting thing...engine wise...is that the 1.7L...has 82hp. More HP and tq than the 1.8L....but that was just and emissions thing. The 1.8L in the same trim as the 1.7L....could have have been pretty much right at 88-90hp.

The same car with the 4 speed...was also much nicer to drive in traffic than the automatic...but on the highway they are pretty much the same.

The 2.0L would have been nice and should have been right at 100 hp.
If emissions were left aside...the 1.7L could have been 90+ hp easily, the 1.8L right at 100 and the 2.0L at 110. Ray


Thats wery true Ray, over in Europe the 1.8 had twin carbs (less smog stuff) and 85hp.
The 2.0 in the 914 had, with its modified heads and bigger valves, 100hp with basically the same D-jet injection and the same compression as the 1.7 - that engine should have gone into the 412GT ! Wink

/Lars S
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Driving question for all you Type 4 owners Reply with quote

Adding to this old thread...the other remarkable characteristic about this car was the vault like solid feel. The body had no flex and there were no rattles or loose things while driving. That always impressed me. It was my mom’s car, that beautiful ‘73 wagon. I loved that car so much I still have it today. Next in line to be restored. Can’t wait to get her done.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:07 am    Post subject: Re: Driving question for all you Type 4 owners Reply with quote

I am considering a 411, because I like quirky and unusual cars, if I can get one at the right price. Some of the design choices VW made back then with these is baffling. For example, why make the wagon a 3 door instead of a 4 door. Yes, 3 door wagons were saw some popularity in the 50s and 60s, but even that was limited and by the late 1960s very few companies sold them, at least in the USA. This was a clean sheet design and VW somehow did not get the note that ever few people wanted a 3 door station wagon. To top it off, no opening rear windows-not even pop open ones, let alone roll downs.

Then we have the 2 and 4 door "sedans" They had an opportunity to make this a Saab 900 a decade before that car came out. Whey not have the engine flat like the Type3 (and Type 4 wagon!) and make it a large hatchback. The interior and trunk space would have been truly impressive.

This is to say nothing of the rather dumpy styling. And while they may ride and handle better than Type 1s and 3s, my impression is that it was not really a fun car to drive, which the type 1 and 3 were.

VW had a chance to make the rear engine rear drive configuration continue successfully, I think, but they really missed out due to some truly questionable decisions. I love air cooled VWs, but there was really a lot of "what were they thinking?" questions about most of their model line as time went on (why keep the beetles wheelbase for the Type 3, why not use the Type 3s flat engine layout and make the beetle a hatchback by the early 1970s, etc).
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:20 am    Post subject: Re: Driving question for all you Type 4 owners Reply with quote

chicagovw wrote:
I am considering a 411, because I like quirky and unusual cars, if I can get one at the right price. Some of the design choices VW made back then with these is baffling. For example, why make the wagon a 3 door instead of a 4 door. Yes, 3 door wagons were saw some popularity in the 50s and 60s, but even that was limited and by the late 1960s very few companies sold them, at least in the USA. This was a clean sheet design and VW somehow did not get the note that ever few people wanted a 3 door station wagon. To top it off, no opening rear windows-not even pop open ones, let alone roll downs.

Then we have the 2 and 4 door "sedans" They had an opportunity to make this a Saab 900 a decade before that car came out. Whey not have the engine flat like the Type3 (and Type 4 wagon!) and make it a large hatchback. The interior and trunk space would have been truly impressive.

This is to say nothing of the rather dumpy styling. And while they may ride and handle better than Type 1s and 3s, my impression is that it was not really a fun car to drive, which the type 1 and 3 were.

VW had a chance to make the rear engine rear drive configuration continue successfully, I think, but they really missed out due to some truly questionable decisions. I love air cooled VWs, but there was really a lot of "what were they thinking?" questions about most of their model line as time went on (why keep the beetles wheelbase for the Type 3, why not use the Type 3s flat engine layout and make the beetle a hatchback by the early 1970s, etc).



The answer as to why no four door wagon.....is in the structure of the car. . Its a unibody......no pan. And....its a front and rear crash cell vehicle. The structure of the sedans in the rear is quite different in a lot of little ways....from the wagons.

To add into these structural problems you have the cooling issues. On the sedans.....the airflow was studied enough to make sure that there was not a negative pressure turbulence pocket behind the rear windshield. It had to feed the engine hatch louvers that fed cooling air.

The wagon.....cannot do this with its big, flat, nearly vertical hatch......so they had to run side fender louvers and a body channel for the air like the type 3. This took away the structure that was behind the fenders of the sedans. The flat rear deck of the wagon is its structural member.
Its also why the flat deck on most of the wagons do not have an access panel for the heater.

Having owned and driven types 1, 2, 3 and 4 fairly extensively......the 411 and 412...especially when equipped with a four speed manual....are more fun to drive than any of those. They handle better, they are quicker, more comfortable and can cruise at a much highdr speed for longer.

They did come with pop out windows....and AC....and sunroof....and power brakes. All of that was available but rarely ordered in the US....probably due to cost.

These cars in the trim and options levels you normally find them in the US...were already in the $4200+ range in 1973. Thats sbout $24,000 in today's dollars.....and about the equivalent cost to a Lincoln town car in 1973.

The 411 styling.....not so far off for Europe in 1968 to 1971.....but yes.....not quite what the US was into at the time which is puzzling because the US was the prime target market.

The 412 styling was not too far off the limited market for Euro cars in the US in 1973....but still too Euro for the US. Example being the front end of the BMW 3.0 CSI......the 412 is right in there.

As for "dumpy".....I wouldnt use that word.....but agree with where it comes from. Most of that was the unfortunate nose high stance.....which I see as a front suspension design error.

The struts were designed too long and situated too high in their mounting points.....to counteract the excessively long control arm throw ....caused by putying their vertex/pivot points in the center of the suspension versus closer to the sides like an A-arm. And.....to counter the potential weight issues of filling up the huge trunk.

I can attest that when you drive with about 200+ lbs in the front trunk.....it levels the car....totally changes/improves the appearance.....improves the steering......but at the same time it causes sway and cornering issues on rough pavement due to the weight and strut valving.

Going to the Audi strut cartridge fixes all of that.

Ray
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chicagovw
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:15 am    Post subject: Re: Driving question for all you Type 4 owners Reply with quote

Interesting points, Ray, but I still think that these are reasons why customers bought the competition. I would think that VW could have figured out a way to engineer past those points. More and more cars were unibody by that time, and offered four doors/a hatchback/etc. If VW could not figure it out with the 411/12 then they should have seen that this car was not going to sell and gone in a different direction sooner than they did. Nonetheless, they are interesting cars in their own right.

I am looking at one now, interested in it, but these are new to me, and I have a few concerns that I am doing some searching around here for. I've had countless Beetles, several Buses, a Type 3 but never a Type 4. A 411 is not a car I would spend a lot of money on, but I have some ideas for one I am looking at and if I can make it make SOME sense financially, I may take the jump.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:38 am    Post subject: Re: Driving question for all you Type 4 owners Reply with quote

Just a side note about the non existing 4-door Variant.
There is a talented guy who have added rear doors to his 412 Variant - a MASSIVE job and I dont know if it is fully finished yet.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


More info at this link;
http://www.rastall.com/412/index.html


/Lars S
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Driving question for all you Type 4 owners Reply with quote

chicagovw wrote:
Interesting points, Ray, but I still think that these are reasons why customers bought the competition. I would think that VW could have figured out a way to engineer past those points. More and more cars were unibody by that time, and offered four doors/a hatchback/etc. If VW could not figure it out with the 411/12 then they should have seen that this car was not going to sell and gone in a different direction sooner than they did. Nonetheless, they are interesting cars in their own right.

I am looking at one now, interested in it, but these are new to me, and I have a few concerns that I am doing some searching around here for. I've had countless Beetles, several Buses, a Type 3 but never a Type 4. A 411 is not a car I would spend a lot of money on, but I have some ideas for one I am looking at and if I can make it make SOME sense financially, I may take the jump.


Actually by the time they started building these cars...1967?...very few cars were unibody. Just as few were struts.

The problem they ran into....is that very few cars were unibody AND crumple zone cars....this was one of the first.

Sure they could engineer around it...eventually...but not by copying anyone. There was no one yet to copy in 1967. They would have had to fully develop that. Lots of testing time...years.....$$$$$$$$

The 411/412 line was an NSU project. They had to build completely new production lines. A lot of what they did learn went into NSU and Audi water cooled cars...so one might say they did do the development in that respect.

This is also with not only going to a completely new chassis structural system....a completely new suspension....and a completely new drive train and engine platform. $$$$$$$$

And....yes...with styling and cost issues....its widely known that VW lost millions on this vehicle.

Sure...they could have engineered the issues out of it....but first they had to find the issues through production and then learn from them......then pay off what they spent already ....with sales that did not happen.....and then re-invest in changes in new vehicles.

The line just did not last long enough. They were already moving into water cooled by 1973. It was clear that aircooled was not going to be what was needed to meet power, emissions, noise requirements etc....in a luxury segment vehicle. I'm surprised they even kept the aircooled in the bus so long.

That being said.....I think they did learn and engineer around the issues. Take a look at the 1973 VW Passat...what we call a dasher.

It came in two and four door and two and four door wagons.....and a LOT of structural and styling parts with the 411 and 412....but with a longitudinal water cooled 4 cylinder.

What you do not grasp...is that automotive design did not move at the same rate 45 years ago that it does now. Its incredibly rare to see a totally new model today. Typically new chassis had to be on a 7-10 year cycle.

Even new model cars that seem to be a totally different size and shape....use body stamping sub-assemblies and five train parts you would never know about ....from previous vehicles. They can do this because of computer aided design. You can take a chassis and sheet metal stamping sub-assembly can be put alone onto the screen in CAD....and you an model what the new assemblies need to have to connect and work.

There is a great video out there somewhere that shows for example the Ford Escape Chassis...sections of it......going into over a dozen different vehicles across about four manufacturers (sold under license)...several of which are actually SEDANS and not SUV's.

If a 411 or 412 is not a car you would spend $ on...don't buy it.

You will have to spend money on it....much more than a beetle or type 3. More similar to a bus....but at least you can buy many parts for those.

There are virtually "0" new or aftermarket parts available. You will have to fabricate many critical parts. We have solutions for most of it.

Because of its structure and the fact that its a crumple zone car....it does not easily lend itself ....like a beetle ....to simply using the shell as a platform for other engine, drivetrain and suspension grafts.

Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Driving question for all you Type 4 owners Reply with quote

There is a talented guy who have added rear doors to his 412 Variant - a MASSIVE job and I dont know if it is fully finished yet.

I thought I had seen something like this years ago. Very cool.

@Ray, I hear you. There are just certain choices that VW seems to have made that makes me wonder why they stopped where they did. As mentioned, keeping the short wheelbase for the type 3, which restricted rear seat leg room. The second trunk on the Fastback was great-but why not a hatch, or at least a folding rear seat (the mustang fastback had a fold down rear seat). Moving back the 411, it seems a shame they could not figure out how to make the 2 or 4 door sedan have the Type 3's second trunk, again given that the wagon did. I am no engineer, so it may well be as you said, they tried and could not, given the technology of the day. You are correct about the Dasher-I have it's successor, a Quantum coupe, which is spiritual successor to the 2 door 411/412 sedan as well as the Dasher.

As far as spending the money, I just finished up a huge project on a VW that has a similar value to the Type 4, a 1973 Super Beetle-far far more time and money in that car than ever expected. I do think that a car should be done right if it is going to be done, be it a Rolls Royce, a Yugo, or anything in between. I am just "hoping" to be somewhat reasonable.

These are certainly an interesting part of VWs history.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Driving question for all you Type 4 owners Reply with quote

Another one of my all time favorite cars. I had a Quantum GL5-4 dr. sedan. My first "modern" car. I couldn't find a Haynes manual for this one and so ended up with one for an Audi 4000. Close enough, as it turned out. Too bad I stuffed it into a ditch (the last auto accident I've had...almost 30 years ago).
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Driving question for all you Type 4 owners Reply with quote

Yes.....I very nearly bought a used two door Dasher coupe. I really liked it. They had some serious design and quality issues through.....I found out years later. Probably lucky I did not buy it.

The quantums and Audi 4000's...were very nice....but started getting so complex near the end before the next generation simplified some things.

All of these cars....you can see direct lineage to the 411/412

The one I almost bough...Dasher....was this color and just like this without snazzy wheels and lowering
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


You can definately see the lineage to the 411/412 two door coupe looking at this.

I had a friend in high school...who had a green "dasher/passat" just like this one with the black passat stripe kit. Her parents were military like mine and brought it back from Germany in about 1979
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.




Yes....I think they could have engineered the trunk on the 411 sedan differently if they had starting thinking about using the louvers on the fenders from the start.

They sacrificed a lot on these cars...working with the uni-body and the crumple zones....at the same time.
Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Driving question for all you Type 4 owners Reply with quote

They stopped because of dropping sales, revaluation of the D-Mark, increased Japanese competition, low gas mileage, and the need to deal with emissions, much easier in a water-cooled car. Comparatively, the new generation of FWD watercoolors were superior vehicles... for the price.

I love the Type 4, and wish I had one, especially back in the day... but in the recession, gas-war plagued early '70s, it just couldn't survive in the marketplace. Too bad, we missed out.
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Lars S
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Joined: October 04, 2007
Posts: 780
Location: Sweden
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:30 am    Post subject: Re: Driving question for all you Type 4 owners Reply with quote

KTPhil wrote:
They stopped because of dropping sales, revaluation of the D-Mark, increased Japanese competition, low gas mileage, and the need to deal with emissions, much easier in a water-cooled car. Comparatively, the new generation of FWD watercoolors were superior vehicles... for the price.

I love the Type 4, and wish I had one, especially back in the day... but in the recession, gas-war plagued early '70s, it just couldn't survive in the marketplace. Too bad, we missed out.


Agree to that! In addittion to this the VW group in 1974 had to many same-size cars; VW412, VW K70, Audi Fox/80, VW Dasher/Passat, NSU RO80 where only the Dasher and Audi Fox shared the same platform....the other almost shared NO components.

About the wheel base, the VW411/412 had less then 4" longer wheelbase than the Beetle/Superbeetle - "nodding" is a known 411 attribute.


/Lars S
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver Smile
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold Sad
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold Sad
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold Sad
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold Sad
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