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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:18 pm Post subject: Re: How to fix this rust spot more solidly...? |
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Thanks Zoltan! Would you recommend doing it this way? That is about 25eur... and this way I can cut as much as I need to and then just use a bit of the panel for a perfect match - no pissing around trying to bend up a patch.
I guess the best way to install the patch would be gluing (as indicated by the comment below). I have that wimpy welder however, which works great on such thin metal... but gluing might be easier and safer?
Buggeee wrote: |
Research on Samba shows my new panel being installed with two part epoxy panel glue, not welding. |
MarkWard wrote: |
The suspension bracket is shaped like an upside down "U". It is seam welded to the cross member and yours looks good there. It is also rosette welded across the top to the frame rail along with some seam welding. Your crossmember section looks good, but you can't really see the condition of the frame rail where your bracket is attached. In the original pictures you posted, I see a lot of rust in that corner.
You could remove the trailing arm and get a better picture and poke at the area with a tool of your choice, but removing a section of the skin will give you a closer view of that area, even if all you do is hole saw and inspection hole in the inner panel.
What is happening, is the rusting is taking place in that corner. It is a dead end where dirt and moisture collect. What I like about Ospho is that is has a viscosity similar to water and will flow into the nooks and crannies that you can't reach with a brush or sprayer.
The aftermarket panels are more than you would need. You just cut out what you need. If you get the rusting under control, it will probably outlast the van. You can always deal with it later, but you will be cutting into that corner again. There is not an easy way to address it from inside. |
Thanks Mark! Very informative info as usual, I really appreciate it!
No doubt I want to get this chronic rust sorted out properly. I am not overly concerned about how my van looks, I just want it to LAST and be safe.
Pouring some OSOPHO in there sounds ideal. _________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:34 pm Post subject: Re: How to fix this rust spot more solidly...? |
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Aha... so this panel is just a tiny little thing? about 20cm X 25cm?
_________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:43 pm Post subject: Re: How to fix this rust spot more solidly...? |
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ah.... but then there is this one also that goes around the wheel well.
I can see that it will be best to buy the panel FIRST before cutting.
_________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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ZsZ Samba Member
Joined: December 11, 2010 Posts: 1645 Location: Budapest Hungary, Europe
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Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:49 pm Post subject: Re: How to fix this rust spot more solidly...? |
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If you just cut only a small hole then you can easily form the patces from sheet metal. No need to buy these panels _________________ Zoltan
1.9 MTdi 2wd Multivan (ex Caravelle)
Van since 2006, engine since 2008 |
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calo1956 Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2011 Posts: 698 Location: long Island new york
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Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:12 pm Post subject: Re: How to fix this rust spot more solidly...? |
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You have to get creative and determine just how much your going to remove. In my case ill be replacing the wheel arch like i did in the passenger side, then modifying this panel going up to the body line, in essence using the full height of the panel, but allowing the factory seam to remain down the wheel arch. _________________ Enjoy the ride....
72 bug
80 westfalia |
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:51 am Post subject: Re: How to fix this rust spot more solidly...? |
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calo1956 wrote: |
You have to get creative and determine just how much your going to remove. . |
This is the question - I'm really not sure how much I should remove > as little as possible of course. But I am assuming that the point here is to remove as much as I need to in order to get full access to all the rusted areas inside > so I can get rid of as much rust as possible... These are pics of what I just did > cut a pretty big hole. How does this look in terms of rust into the FRAME?
I wonder if I should also cut a hole in the wheel well area > that was also rusted 2 years ago but my body work in this area seems to be holding nicely. But opening a hole here would give me very good access to the inside, and would be very easy to patch up later.
Here is what it looked like 2 years ago...
_________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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Buggeee Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2016 Posts: 4406 Location: Stuck in Ohio
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:07 am Post subject: Re: How to fix this rust spot more solidly...? |
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Buggeee wrote: |
To me it looks like there will be welding. On the upside, you will have a new skill when you are finished. |
Hopefully not too much... _________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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ZsZ Samba Member
Joined: December 11, 2010 Posts: 1645 Location: Budapest Hungary, Europe
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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:52 am Post subject: Re: How to fix this rust spot more solidly...? |
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You need more space to reach the panels under the skin but be careful not to cult bigger hole than the patch which is available
So buy a patch panel and mark where is the line you dont want to go over.
On the pics its clear that the sill skin was repaired before with a patch panel _________________ Zoltan
1.9 MTdi 2wd Multivan (ex Caravelle)
Van since 2006, engine since 2008 |
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:09 am Post subject: Re: How to fix this rust spot more solidly...? |
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ZsZ wrote: |
You need more space to reach the panels under the skin but be careful not to cult bigger hole than the patch which is available
So buy a patch panel and mark where is the line you dont want to go over.
On the pics its clear that the sill skin was repaired before with a patch panel |
Seems unfortunately I already (had to) cut more than the size of the replacement panel.
Seems the panel goes right up to the red arrow... I had to cut more. I guess it means that before installing the new panel I will first have to build up the other areas with scrap metal.
_________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:19 am Post subject: Re: How to fix this rust spot more solidly...? |
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So I've enlarged the hole in the outer skin... and now wondering if I should also cut the inner skin >>> I guess I MUST actually, if I want to get the rust off of the frame. Then later I will weld in a new inner skin with scrap metal.
The next weird thing is that there is a large gap between the outer panel and van body, all around the wheel well > and this gap has been filled with rubber caulk. I guess I won't freak out too much about this because it doesn't seem to be rusting.
_________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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Buggeee Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2016 Posts: 4406 Location: Stuck in Ohio
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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:38 am Post subject: Re: How to fix this rust spot more solidly...? |
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epowell wrote: |
The next weird thing is that there is a large gap between the outer panel and van body, all around the wheel well > and this gap has been filled with rubber caulk. I guess I won't freak out too much about this because it doesn't seem to be rusting. |
The caulk on the seams of the body is called "seam sealer" It comes in tubes for a caulking gun just like caulk for your house but is made for automotive use. In areas where it is cracking badly and coming off, you should grind out that cracking/failing seam sealer and run a fresh bead of new seam sealer in that seam or it will rust.
Here is a link to 3M seam sealer on Amazon for example: https://www.amazon.com/3M-08505-Sealer-Cartridge-o...dpSrc=srch
I had to do some minor rust repair in the nose of my Vanagon along a seam. I cleaned it out, did the welding, and then prepped it as follows.
Here is an inside shot of where I cleaned out the old seam sealer and then welded it up from the outside.
Here is what it looked like on the outside
Not to worry, you just grind it down carefully with a "flap disc" on your angle grinder, and it looks like this:
Back to the inside.
First, I soaked the exposed metal in phosphoric acid metal prep, this product (it melts surface rust):
Then when that was dry, I coated the inside of the seam area with internal frame coating from Eastwood here in the US. Here is a link:
https://www.eastwood.com/eastwood-internal-frame-coating-14oz-aerosol.html
That was sprayed on but the 3/4 meter tube that comes with has a wide fan spray tip on it that lets you coat the whole inside area of spaces with the protective coating. Here is the tube going up into the nose of the van through a hole I drilled so I could coat the inside of a lower corner windshield repair:
If you can find something like that it would be really helpful to coating the insides of those areas you will be rebuilding. There are other chassis paints as well, that can be applied on rough or even rusty surfaces. If you read the descriptions, look for something that seeps into cracks. The Eastwood stuff really crawls into everywhere.
Then I filled the seam with seam sealer (I couldn't get the caulking gun in there so just used my finger.
Then I painted. _________________ 1966 Sportsmobile Camper https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
72 Super Duper http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=672387
(adopted out) 61 Turkis Pile https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=728764
SnowDaySyncro wrote: |
Every setback is an opportunity to learn stuff and to buy new tools. |
Last edited by Buggeee on Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:24 am; edited 2 times in total |
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:04 am Post subject: Re: How to fix this rust spot more solidly...? |
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OK, so it is not such a terrible thing?
Here are a few pics of the 2nd skin cut...
_________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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Buggeee Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2016 Posts: 4406 Location: Stuck in Ohio
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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:22 am Post subject: Re: How to fix this rust spot more solidly...? |
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epowell wrote: |
OK, so it is not such a terrible thing?
Here are a few pics of the 2nd skin cut... |
It is not a terrible thing. You will be fine and it will feel really good to know it is done the correct way so you can put it behind you
I edited my earlier post to show you some of the products I have been using inside the body. After you clean them out the best you can, you will want to coat the insides to stop the progression of the rust chemical reaction. Look for products with features called "rust converter" and "rust encapsulator".) _________________ 1966 Sportsmobile Camper https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
72 Super Duper http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=672387
(adopted out) 61 Turkis Pile https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=728764
SnowDaySyncro wrote: |
Every setback is an opportunity to learn stuff and to buy new tools. |
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:51 am Post subject: Re: How to fix this rust spot more solidly...? |
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Thanks for this info!!
I just got finished grinding for the day...
And started to jack the van up... and really felt like the jack was BENDING the jacking point... so I stopped. I know realize that actually I can not drive the van until I get this repair finished, I took off so much metal that it is no longer safe to drive.
_________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:59 am Post subject: Re: How to fix this rust spot more solidly...? |
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Here is the progress I made today.... I am not sure if I should cut out anymore... probably not... now is time to GRIND OUT THE REMAINING RUST and then start thinking about welding This is going to be challenging.
_________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17109 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:14 am Post subject: Re: How to fix this rust spot more solidly...? |
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Wow, your out of control, but you are doing this correctly. Can you purchase steel box tubing where you are? I am thinking you get a piece of box tube and fit it in above the suspension mount length wise. They you will need to weld it to the inner skin which might require trimming that up. You might even cut the fender well so you can slide the tube in and weld it to the fender well skin and cap. Weld where ever you can reach.
Here is the problem, you are going to have to weld it yourself or have someone come to you once you have all the repair pieces fitted.
Short of inserting a piece of box tube, get some 3/16th plate and you want to weld it between the inner skin you cut back and the out side corner where the suspension bracket mounts. This will triangulate that corner again and give it some strength back. The outer skin is only slightly structural. You can go to a junk yard and pickup a sheet metal hood for cutting out pieces of metal for filler. Last step will be to get the outer skin in. A donor corner is not worth the effort, just stop jacking on that point till you get it reinforced. _________________ ☮️ |
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:03 pm Post subject: Re: How to fix this rust spot more solidly...? |
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MarkWard wrote: |
Wow, your out of control, but you are doing this correctly. Can you purchase steel box tubing where you are? I am thinking you get a piece of box tube and fit it in above the suspension mount length wise. They you will need to weld it to the inner skin which might require trimming that up. You might even cut the fender well so you can slide the tube in and weld it to the fender well skin and cap. Weld where ever you can reach.
Here is the problem, you are going to have to weld it yourself or have someone come to you once you have all the repair pieces fitted.
Short of inserting a piece of box tube, get some 3/16th plate and you want to weld it between the inner skin you cut back and the out side corner where the suspension bracket mounts. This will triangulate that corner again and give it some strength back. The outer skin is only slightly structural. You can go to a junk yard and pickup a sheet metal hood for cutting out pieces of metal for filler. Last step will be to get the outer skin in. A donor corner is not worth the effort, just stop jacking on that point till you get it reinforced. |
Yes I can get box tubing and any kind of metal I need easily.
OK, I will need to study and get creative, and weld in as much as possible.
Thanks Mark... yeah I got way ahead of myself and now realize that it was a good thing that I put the van up on blocks before cutting so much...
....but I now have that panicy sorta 'freaked out' feeling which is all so familiar but I haven't had in a long time.... when you realized you are 'out of control' and not completely sure what to do next.
I am committed to really taking some time with this welding, and want to be totally sure I get it back to full strength. _________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17109 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: How to fix this rust spot more solidly...? |
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Ed, I was searching the internets for some images of syncro fuel tank filler installs and came across this thread which is similar to what you are faced with. Scroll down and there is a section where they dealt with the same area. Looks fairly straightforward using mostly sheetmetal. Mark
http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/syncro-renovation_topic82911.html _________________ ☮️ |
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