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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17124
Location: Retired South Florida
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 Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:32 pm Post subject: Re: How to fix this rust spot more solidly...? |
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I thought jacking it tweaked it up. With the van chassis supported on jack stands a long enough lever you could tweak it back.
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epowell
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4733
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:16 pm Post subject: Re: How to fix this rust spot more solidly...? |
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| MarkWard wrote: |
| I thought jacking it tweaked it up. With the van chassis supported on jack stands a long enough lever you could tweak it back. |
U mean just stick a long pipe (same size and the jack's phallus) and pry down on the end of the pipe > that should do it? Logically... it should. But risk off stressing the bracket/frame joint? >>>if not, then leveling out that bracket seems like the right thing to do.
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epowell
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4733
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:35 pm Post subject: Re: How to fix this rust spot more solidly...? |
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Another thing is that I am really considering GLUING IN the outer skin panel. The reason is that while with the inner panels and stuff I can cut, grind, weld, and re-do all I want and it doesn't matter what it finally looks like as long as it is strong - but with the outer skin I only have one panel and one chance to get it right, and furthermore my amateur crappy flux welds will be fully visible and I'll have to grind like crazy.
I know that gluing that panel will sacrifice strength, but I am thinking to weld in a couple of gussets on top of the bracket for added strength - so everything should be strong enough with just the inside re-build. Another benefit of gluing is I can fully paint the inside surface of the panel before gluing and know the inside surface is protected > otherwise if I weld, then there is no way I can somehow get inside and coat those welded areas from the inside - they will be vulnerable to rusting.
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17124
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:43 am Post subject: Re: How to fix this rust spot more solidly...? |
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I think a lot of people are gluing the outer replacement skin. Use pop rivets to hold the panel while it sets. I have no experience with gluing panels, but am thinking about if I can use it to swap over the syncro filler neck. I think it is a 2 part glue that requires a special gun to apply. I could be wrong. Look over at Ben's Place. He used to have some restoration projects posted on his website. Don't know the website off hand.
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dobryan
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Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16503
Location: Brookeville, MD
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:59 am Post subject: Re: How to fix this rust spot more solidly...? |
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BTW that two part panel glue does not absolutely require a special gun to apply it. There is a special gun (expensive) with a nozzle that mixes it as it dispenses it but for small use I found it fine to open each tube and mix equal amounts on a paper plate and apply like you would any other adhesive with an acid brush or a spatula of wood, etc.
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Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD
"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson
MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646
Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371
The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794 |
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epowell
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4733
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:12 pm Post subject: Re: How to fix this rust spot more solidly...? |
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Yeah I am leaning towards gluing the outer skin for reasons I stated. Seems people are using drywall screws to fasten while curing - then they grind off the screw heads... I wonder why they just don't remove the screws?
Yeah as long as it is not super fast drying stuff I don't see any reason why you can't just hand mix the 2 parts like regular epoxy... I also wonder what is the actual difference between panel adh. and regular epoxy glue?
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dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16503
Location: Brookeville, MD
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:01 pm Post subject: Re: How to fix this rust spot more solidly...? |
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The regular panel adhesive is incredibly strong stuff. Epoxy cannot even come close, do not be tempted by epoxy. It is not super fast curing, it does not 'dry' it undergoes a chemical reaction and 'cures'. It will say on the instructions how long it can be worked. Several minutes at least.
Depending on how well your outer skin fits you may not need to fasten it with anything. I have had success just using painters tape to hold the piece in place until the adhesive cured enough to hold it. Get creative... 
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Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD
"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson
MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646
Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371
The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794 |
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epowell
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4733
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: How to fix this rust spot more solidly...? |
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| dobryan wrote: |
The regular panel adhesive is incredibly strong stuff. Epoxy cannot even come close, do not be tempted by epoxy. It is not super fast curing, it does not 'dry' it undergoes a chemical reaction and 'cures'. It will say on the instructions how long it can be worked. Several minutes at least.
Depending on how well your outer skin fits you may not need to fasten it with anything. I have had success just using painters tape to hold the piece in place until the adhesive cured enough to hold it. Get creative... |
Yeah that's what I was actually thinking... with a precisely fitting surface, just taping might work. I'll be I will end up sometime using this panel adhesive in my instrument making. Sometimes we need extremely strong glue which is also 'gap filling'.
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epowell
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4733
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:29 am Post subject: Re: How to fix this rust spot more solidly...? |
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Thanks so much for all of this help!
I now have to leave the project alone until mid-November since I am now about to go on my annual trip home to Vancouver.
I'm now feeling very confident about the project > I just ran outta time, but glad I get as much of it done as I could while weather has been favorable. I'm confident now I can make the welding work but am also more aware of how tedious this welding is going to be. And how tedious is going to be the preparation of repair pieces etc... but it will be fun 
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MarkWard
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Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17124
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:17 am Post subject: Re: How to fix this rust spot more solidly...? |
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Have a good trip. Now you have something to think about. I don't think VW intended for these to be around as long as they have. The seam design, just did not stand up to the test of time.
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SyncroButter
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Joined: February 02, 2016
Posts: 383
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:34 am Post subject: Re: How to fix this rust spot more solidly...? |
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I think your idea of welding the structural parts and then gluing the skin is the right approach, you get the strength that only comes with a proper weld and the convenience/lack of warping etc on the skin which is really just cosmetic. When I tackled some rust on my van I too enjoyed the added benefit that I could clean up/rust proof the "inside" and then glue on the skin without worrying about burning through my new epoxy paint etc.
I posted some thoughts on this subject (as well as links to others gluing projects which may be helpful) on page 2 of this thread:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...p;start=20
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Grant
In the stable: 1986 Syncro Westfalia/Bostig, 1989 Doka Tristar, 1974 Vespa Rally 200, 1973 Vespa Primavera 125, 1963 Solex 2200, 1938 Buick Special
Gone but not forgotten: 1989 Porsche 944, 1973 Standard Beetle |
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epowell
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Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4733
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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epowell
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4733
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:59 pm Post subject: Re: How to fix this rust spot more solidly...? |
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OK..... finally back here in Czech and GEorge is still here waiting for me to get him out of hospital
The next 2 days should be sunny so I am hoping to get out and WELD! [however with this jetlag I am waking up around 4pm!!....just in time for sunset  ]
Anyhow, I still have not got a Halogen or a LED work light to brighten up my welding area (this will be ESSENTIAL!!!), but I thought of another low-budget idea to get more light in there. I have here 2 wrong-model headlamps that I have no use for (I actually even have the old ones I took out of GEorge), and think I will try hooking one or two of these up to a battery - mounting them on some tripod somehow, and bingo, that might be a simple cheap way to get good lighting for welding. Has anyone ever tried this way before? Headlamps should be bright enough, no?
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epowell
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Joined: September 23, 2015
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Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:18 am Post subject: Re: How to fix this rust spot more solidly...? |
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OK... so I spent the morning trying to figure out how to build a powerful work-light from an old discarded T3 headlamp - and actually it works.
I didn't actually test welding with this yet, but I did do a visibility test using my welding helmet and WOW what an incredible difference. With this light I can really SEE stuff thru the helmet whereas previously I saw almost nothing. I am hoping that this will make a huge difference.
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epowell
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Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4733
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:07 am Post subject: Re: How to fix this rust spot more solidly...? |
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...slowly slowly I'm making progress (finally) with getting this jacking point welded up. I will spare you the embarrassing details of all the photos along the way. My welding is terrible, and this machine I have is even worse - but I am compensating by going over-kill to get the strength to what it should be.... I feel pretty confident that I'm getting the metal in there quite strongly.
Here are a couple of photos showing a conclusion to "phase one". Next up I will get the INNER SKIN cut and welded in there - after that all there is to do is the thin outer skin.
QUESTION: After I get the INNER SKIN welded in there should it all be then strong enough to drive on again? [I assume yes because the outer skin - which I will glue in - I am going to assume won't really add much strength]
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Buggeee
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Joined: December 22, 2016
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Location: Stuck in Ohio
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epowell
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4733
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:37 am Post subject: Re: How to fix this rust spot more solidly...? |
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| Buggeee wrote: |
It looks stronger! The way you have it boxed in makes it seem very strong. Congratulations on the light - and the welding skills.  |
Thanks
Got most of the INNER SKIN welded in... seems pretty strong now. Sorry for the crappy photo - it was the last before the camera battery died, then sun went down...
All that is left now is the pillar, and a little piece on the wheel-well side - then I can drive again 
...after that get the outer skin glued in and painted. . . .
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shagginwagon83
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Joined: February 07, 2016
Posts: 3796
Location: VA/TN
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:45 am Post subject: Re: How to fix this rust spot more solidly...? |
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How does the back of that plate ^ get primed/painted to not become rusty?
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Brandon
"Jo Ann" - '83.5 Westfalia EJ22e w/Peloquin
Instagram @joannthevan |
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epowell
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4733
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:47 am Post subject: Re: How to fix this rust spot more solidly...? |
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| shagginwagon83 wrote: |
| How does the back of that plate ^ get primed/painted to not become rusty? |
oh no... I forgot to do that. however there is no way that a paint job done before welding would be 100% because the welding itself will burn off a significant amount of that paint around the edges...
...what I'm going to do now (now that you reminded me) is to see how and where I can get a spray-can somehow to spray the inside... the most difficult part will be between the 2 supports that I added. [maybe I should drill a small hole there to get the spray inside?]
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epowell
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Joined: September 23, 2015
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Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:38 pm Post subject: Re: How to fix this rust spot more solidly...? |
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In order to protect the inside of the skin, in that inaccessible cavity, I think I will get a garden sprayer with a thin flexible extension hose, and spray fluid-film in there annually. I guess this should keep it from rusting again.
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