Fix the aging WBX or swap?

[DuncanS]

I have some questions and want advice.

'91 tin top, no rust 180K miles. Daily driver, with ~6k miles/year. Probably original engine never removed, but don't know. New to me in '12 with 140 on the clock. I have made over 75 mods to the car, but don't do engine work, brakes or any of the replacements of hoses etc. I've had done over the years.

Have recently been losing coolant--all new hoses and distribution tower. Mechanic tells me I have a leak on the passenger's side head gasket. He guesses corrosion on a 28year old engine. He put in some stop-leak, but said it was one shot. Don't do it again as it can clog important passageways in radiator and so on.

Trying to figure out the best solution. Let's see at 60mph the engine turns at 3500/ min and thus 3500/mile X 180k = 630 million. But there's tons of time in lower gears so that means my engine is pushing 1 BILLION turns. It's pretty amazing to think that such a thing is possible without major problems. I'm a reasonably smart guy and if someone wanted me to build an engine from scratch I know I could do it. But I would say to the guy that maybe we could get a few hundred revs on it before it catastrophically failed.

Option one--Pull the engine and put on rebuilt heads and possibly mill the cylinders to get a good gasket seal if there is erosion there. Cost--don't know, but probably 2+k. Don't know of a mechanic in my area, but this shouldn't be that tough to find.

Option two--A full rebuild. I've found Hans Imports in North Kingston, Rhode Island who will do it in two weeks.

Drive away for $7500. This is a lot of scratch approaching option three in price. In addition, I'm getting to the point in life where I won't be able to do the kinds of things that the Vanagon is all about for that much longer. So, do I really need an engine ready for the next billion turns? If I can get 30k more miles out of her then we can both cross the finish line together.

Option three--I've always dreamed about a Subbie or other gas replacement such as a 50º whatever with a 5 speed tranny. However, I'm beginning to have second thoughts about this. Nick of "1991 Multivan TDI build" fame had an incredible job done at FAS, but has started to experience issues after 10k miles or so (a guess). Putting more power into parts that German engineers with their proclivity for precision can risk CV joints, the tranny and other components. And there are cabin heat and a number of other things to be sorted out as well. I doubt that such a swap would be a two week adventure.

I'd love some input on this.

[DuncanS]

Oops, forgot to click on "Notify me when a reply is posted."

[shagginwagon83]

[borninabus]

this is total crazy talk for around here, but....
i would not hesitate to remove (or in your case, have someone remove) the offending head, replace the leaking water jacket seal (and green orings, cylinder to head gaskets and pushrod tube seals) and roll on.

good luck with whichever path you choose
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88 Van WBX, A/T - 13 JSW TDI 6M/T - 2012 Touareg TDI Sport

[9.5isCanadian]

For me its the swap.
No question. Having just purchased an 87 high top, originally as a parts donor to convert my rebuilt 81 a/c sunroof vanagon, the plan is a 2.5 with the subaru 5 speed. The donor van is just too nice to gut but that's not what you asked about.

I want driveablitly. I want smooth acceleration, I want slick transmission functionality, I want modern-ish FI.


So, my vote is in the swap camp.
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9 1/2 - missing a few pieces.

1987 Getaway Hightop
1980 Sunroof Vanagon
2018 BMW R Nine T
2012 Golf tdi

[Zeitgeist 13]

I just swapped in a rebuilt 2.1 for a friend's van, and all told the final tally came in just shy of $5k. $7.5k seems a tad high for what they're offering.
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Casey--

'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik?

[Pinetops]

You could spend another 1k and do a bostig conversion also.
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"A rolling bus gathers no rust."

[Ahwahnee]

I am wary of swaps done by third parties on behalf of owners who "don't do engine work, brakes or any of the replacements of hoses etc.".

A swap (Subie or otherwise) is grand if you know the engine inside out and plan to do future work yourself - but possibly not so good if you will always have to find someone willing & able to work on it down the road.

[DuncanS]

Doubt that any of the kids would be interested in the Vanagon after I'm done with it. I had my first Vdub box in 1961--a 23 window '57 and have had them continuously since with about 6 T3's--air cooled and beyond. They all grew up with various models, but of course, I had to drop them off at school a couple of blocks away as they didn't want to be seen etc. They've moved on to pickups and leased cars and all the non Vdub culture wheels. Sad, but kids these days......... It's stripped out to give it multivan (small m) use. Tool transport, shop, truck, motel/restaurant, car, warehouse and everything except a Ferrari or chicken coop. Have the seats, but stored.

The 9' sailing dingy for my sailboat goes inside with the hatch closed. Check out the boat model under the AC outlet. The fan moves the air around just fine without the ducts, and I didn't want to lose the interior cube to them. Note jump seat I added behind passenger if others want to come.

Anywhoo--we have a station wagon and that will probably become the carrying vehicle after the boat is sold. So longevity of motor is not of primary interest. Would I like more power---of course, but I've never felt 95 mice on the tread mill to be a disadvantage. Roll right along even fully loaded. Suspect that the loss of the two heavy as hell rear seats and none of the permanent camping Westy gear make my gross manageable.

Borninabus==you got my attention. Can the heads be pulled and reinstalled without dropping the engine? Realize that I would need the collapsable pushrod tubes?, but if so, maybe I'd do that myself just to see how bad the problem is. I could use a new exhaust system. Don't have any real leaks, but it's kinna tender. Even if new or rebuilt heads wouldn't solve the problem, at least the diagnosis would be complete.

The issue is further complicated in that I have a spare WBX 2.1 with 150 on it, but with claims of a rebuild within the last 50. Whaddya think?

Ahwahnee--checked out the Gowesty long block at 45 Franklins, but then there is the AC pump install and all the bits and pieces. So with the in and out and gluing the accessories on won't I be within shouting distance of Hans?

Appreciate the comment about how swappies need to be gear heads. Have read hundreds of posts and I gathered that was the situation. If I were younger, I wouldn't have created this thread as I would already have many of the necessary components.

[DuncanS]

Yes, I do want 13 more years out of the van, but that would make me older than Methuselah and so figure by then................. Recently had the house re roofed. The contractor asked if I wanted 30 year shingles or 50. I said, "What do you have for 7 year shingles?".

Not ruling out the Gowesty block, just wish I had Superman vision so I could look inside the heads and see what's going on. By the way--good compression all around and no (knock on wood) recent Vanagon syndrome issues. No rust may mean less interior wire corrosion and voltage drops to the ECU. Every wire I replace these days I use marine wire where each individual strand is tinned. Better insulation too and so never any interior corrosion--ever.

[Ahwahnee]

[owokie]

How attached are you to the Vanagon itself? As much as we love ours, if I had your needs, which I'm interpreting as a rolling toolbox, I'd be looking at a newer cargo van, perhaps something like this: https://nh.craigslist.org/cto/d/2004-chevrolet-express-cargo/6683009635.html

You don't appear to be camping in it, you don't have the inclination (or time?) to work on it yourself, and you will never recoup anything above ~2k that you put into that engine. If you're keeping it, I'm with the guy who voted for the bandaid option. Either that or swap in the spare that you have on hand and see how it goes.

[DuncanS]

I guess you missed the comment that I've had a continuous stream of Vdub vans since 1961. And I do camp in it. My estimate for the various T3's I've had in the last 20 years is over 300 nights. There is a piece of ply hinged at the top of the forward edge of the engine platform which when swung up and extended supports a mattress. I'm into the multivan approach where everything can be converted and used for the need of the moment. There is a table on the left rear side that is held in place with barrel bolts so it can swing up or be removed. The passenger's side door handle was replaced with a folding overhead grab handle from a junkyard so the seat there can be turned around and face backwards while camping and not have an interference fit with the armrest. If I weren't attached to it I wouldn't have made the 75 modifications. I do a ton of work on it myself--just not much of the mechanical running side although I did three starter motor swaps before getting one to work--then backed it up with a hard start relay. For example I just repaired a frozen electric window motor and reinstalled it.

[levi]

Just how much of a leak is it?

Hopefully he didn't use Bars stop leak, its pretty well known for messing with the water pump and radiator.

If the leak isn't TOO bad, first thing I'd try is 2 bottles of Subaru Blue.
It will not plug up anything (really), and it just might take care of you for awhile.

https://www.google.com/search?q=subaru+blue+coolan...mp;bih=512

Only a couple bucks at your local Subaru Stealership.
_________________
One of these days I'm gonna settle down,
but till I do I won't be hangin round.
Going down that long lonesome highway,
gonna see life my way

https://youtu.be/cSrL0BXsO40

[Abscate]

Option 0...drive it carefully and feed it coolant.

6k a year isn’t a lot.
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.ssS!

[dobryan]

That subaru stuff is the shizzle. Really.
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Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD

"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson

MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646

Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371

The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794

[Mellow Yellow 74]

Assuming the engine is otherwise ok (decent compression etc) I would remove the head and check the damage before deciding. The mechanic is only assuming it is due to corrosion but maybe the studs and heads are ok and it just needs new water jacket seals?
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1962 Karmann Ghia
1974 Deluxe Microbus
1985 Caravelle (Vanagon)

[82westyrabbit]

Assuming you need to do anything at all I would start with having a shop pull the leaky head and go from there. Here on the samba we love to say that’s to much money. But if that $7500 quote is not only the rebuild engine but also the matanice parts like hoses and engine mounts that no doubt also need changing the maybe not. I like engine swaps my self. I have a 50 degree in line engine myself. It is not as smooth or as quite as a WXB. But I don’t think anyone could put two hundred thousand miles on one of these boxes any cheaper than I have. If I was not starting with a 82 diesel van I think would the go the Subaru route. there are just so many of out there and running. I was talking to another ,vanagon owner over the weekend who said he bought his van new and had three hundred and eighty thousand miles on the original engine. I didn’t ask how many times he had the heads off but if everything else is alright I would not change the engine just because of the mileage. Good luck with your choice. John

[mikemtnbike]

I pulled my heads and replaced seals, worry free 2 years and about 10,000 miles now (had a broken odometer for 10 months, so guessing) getting ready to flush coolant this weekend. Here's a picture of how my passenger side waterjacket seal fell apart on removal...

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1991 Vanagon GL 2.1 AT Westfauxlia. "Frankie" Totaled https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=764510&highlight=carnage
1995 Eurovan Camper "Marzivan"
2020 GTI SE manual

[DuncanS]

This is all great advice. The coolant leak rate is unknown. I was losing it at the rate of ½ an expansion reservoir per 500 miles. Then it increased steadily to one full refill every 100 miles. Then I was at the local Walmart and discovered it dry after ten miles and bought some antifreeze to get me home. When I poured it in, it came out in equal amounts at the forward end of the engine. After flatbedding it to my mechanic, he discovered the plastic coolant distribution tower was toast. Swapped it out for stainless and redid all coolant hoses. That was when he noticed the head leak and added his goo. Hasn't leaked until 2k miles later when I noticed it was dry. When refilling, the coolant slopped out of the jug and filled the tank to overflowing. Drove around with no cap until it had splashed out to the correct level. But this made me think--is the coolant under pressure? Bentley says that the expansion tank (not the expansion/refill reservoir) has a cap that opens at around 15 psi to allow a thermal expansion discharge or a slight vacuum to all replacement upon cooling. 15psi sounds like atmospheric pressure to me and thus isn't the coolant system essentially open? If I were to run with the cap off and carefully monitor the coolant level, would this be a bad idea and hurt anything? I'm wondering if my cap (age unknown) might be pressurizing the coolant excessively and the marginal head gasket becomes the pressure relief point.

Will monitor the coolant loss rate under normal cap on conditions and keep you posted.

Dave--Have read a ton of your posts and trust your judgement and advice you have given over the years. Could you give a hint as to the definition of "shizzle"? Sounds like an endorsement, but the sh makes me nervous when think of SHam, SHoddy, and of course, SH###y.

John--Your post was great. I have had a few T3's that got in the low 200's before either rust or a total Vanagon Syndrome turned out the lights on them, so it is clearly possible these guys can do 2 billion turns and still live. On the catastrophic VS demise, I am convinced that corroded wire inside the insulation is a major contributor. I've been in the marine business at various levels, essentially all my life, professionally and as a yachtie and have seen wire completely corroded the entire 15' length with parts degraded to 10% of original material. I always replace any suspect wire with ABYA rating. This stuff has each strand tinned separately before being encased in super insulation and never corrodes. Here's a copied blurb every Vanagon owner should read.

Sophisticated marine electronics and instruments only operate at peak potential when supplied with power at the right voltage, which necessitates high-quality wire like Ancor's Primary Wire. Ordinary automotive-type wire can suffer a loss of conductivity after a few months in the marine environment. Corrosion takes place, and corrodes the copper conductor, when the wire’s jacket and insulation are compromised by water intrusion. Marine-grade wire from Ancor is rated for oily and wet environments because its jacket is impervious to those conditions. Each strand has a tin coating for extra corrosion resistance (note the “silver” look when you strip it). 
Vibration is always present on a boat, and will quickly fatigue and crack coarsely stranded wire. Ancor wire is Type 3 stranded, meaning that it has 5-10 times more copper strands than Type 2 wire, making it more flexible and fatigue resistant. It is constructed with premium vinyl insulation that is rated at 600 volts, 221°F (105°C) dry and 167°F (75°C) wet. It is also Marine UL-listed, and meets the highest ABYC standards for AC and DC use. Finally, it is based on AWG (American Wire Gauge) wire sizes, which are 6-12% larger than SAE gauge wire. So you get more current-carrying ability than from similar SAE wire.

This is OT, but I never pass up an opportunity to mount this particular pulpit--sorry.

Mike--Thanks for the photos of the trashed gaskets. How tough was this to do? Don't have a lift, but do have an unheated garage that will allow me to get it up 10" or so.