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Where can a 40-horse case lose OP?
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glutamodo Premium Member
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:13 am    Post subject: Re: Where can a 40-horse case lose OP? Reply with quote

&Dan wrote:

Off the subject, as much as I admire Electrician, Bozos, Pliers and Wrong, Dear Friends is still my life's blood.

Hah! A Firehead!

I'm probably the only hard core FST fan in the state of Wyoming. I'd rather love it I had such a co-worker, but if I suspect the natural interaction and quoting would rather get old with my co-workers.

I'm probably the only one within a few hundred miles that when I read news about a hurricane, my mind jumps to "Get in that barrel, darlin', and we'll do it 'urricane style"
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&Dan
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:23 am    Post subject: Re: Where can a 40-horse case lose OP? Reply with quote

There's a guy down in Terlingua that has gone by the name Uh Clem for about 40 years- even listed as such in the phone book.
I've been warped by those 4 or 5 Crazy Guys since 9th grade, but I never did join the Young Tom Edison Club.
In my world there are very few situations that pop up that do not bring to mind at least one FST reference.
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glutamodo Premium Member
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:32 am    Post subject: Re: Where can a 40-horse case lose OP? Reply with quote

My favorite Firesign Theatre member was probably Austin, but sadly, he's gone. Second was that other Phil, Proctor. And he's still alive and kicking! If you were not aware, Proctor recently issued a biography and is now in the process of reading it in paid podcast form: https://theproctorpodcast.podbean.com/
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Towel Rail
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:04 am    Post subject: Re: Where can a 40-horse case lose OP? Reply with quote

You mentioned the oil pickup tube being tight in the case, but any chance it has a leak and is sucking a little air, as happened to VW_Jimbo in this thread? https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=699820

Easy to check by overfilling the oil by about a quart, and seeing if that resolves the low pressure.
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&Dan
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:47 am    Post subject: Re: Where can a 40-horse case lose OP? Reply with quote

glutamodo wrote:
My favorite Firesign Theatre member was probably Austin, but sadly, he's gone. Second was that other Phil, Proctor. And he's still alive and kicking! If you were not aware, Proctor recently issued a biography and is now in the process of reading it in paid podcast form: https://theproctorpodcast.podbean.com/


Bergman, too, dammit. Just Ossman and Proctor now. I thought P/B did a pretty great job, particularly on TV Or Not TV, extending the UTV idea. As always, wa-a-a-y ahead of their time. It's also pretty nifty to what extent Proctor has had a great voiceover career. He's everywhere!

Towel Rail wrote:
You mentioned the oil pickup tube being tight in the case, but any chance it has a leak and is sucking a little air, as happened to VW_Jimbo in this thread? https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=699820

Easy to check by overfilling the oil by about a quart, and seeing if that resolves the low pressure.



I thought of that too, and added extra per your advice [when the engine was still together/running] but no dice. Still, provided this motor ever gets reassembled I will doublecheck that for wee pinholes.
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Towel Rail
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Where can a 40-horse case lose OP? Reply with quote

Rats. Have you plastigaged the cam?
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&Dan
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Where can a 40-horse case lose OP? Reply with quote

Towel Rail wrote:
Rats. Have you plastigaged the cam?


The cam in the cam saddles with the case halves torqued up? Not yet, but that is a terrific idea. Have both red and green around the shop somewhere.
I forget what the clearance should be so will look that up. The saddles do appear a bit worn- if this was any alloy case like a Porsche or most motorcycles where the cam rides directly on the base material I think I would be concerned at its appearance, but I'm no expert in magnesium. If I can get hold of a decent camera I can attempt to take a few snapshots of the cam saddle surfaces.

And if after a look folks say, "Well, duh, those are really worn, ya dummy,", that would actually be great news. Hundred or so bucks and that would fix the problem.
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Jacks
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:22 am    Post subject: Re: Where can a 40-horse case lose OP? Reply with quote

I've had more than one cam over the years with undersized journals. Confused
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&Dan
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:49 am    Post subject: Re: Where can a 40-horse case lose OP? Reply with quote

Jacks wrote:
I've had more than one cam over the years with undersized journals. Confused


Is that right? Hmmmm. Maybe today should be Measuring All The Things Day.
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&Dan
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:33 am    Post subject: Re: Where can a 40-horse case lose OP? Reply with quote

Yep. There is a difference between the old cam's journals and the new of several thousandths which coupled with the old worn cam saddles would be a swell place to lose OP once the oil thins as the engine warms...or so I would think.

What say?
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&Dan
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:05 am    Post subject: Re: Where can a 40-horse case lose OP? Reply with quote

Dug out the Plastigage...

Aaaaand that appears to confirm it: Wear limit is .012mm and these saddles have over .0152mm clearance, so all hogged out.
That means they have basically the same clearance as a properly adjusted valve- .006". And that go/no go is with a stock cam, and as Jacks pointed out, aftermarket cams often have slightly undersized journals, and this new cam indeed has journals a couple thou or so smaller than an old worn stock cam. So, yeah, those are really worn, and that there is what it is.

Now correct me if I'm wrong but that OP drops about what and when you think it would given the circumstances. Of course none of this means anything if motor acts the same after machining for cam bearings, so I'll know to a certainty after that.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Where can a 40-horse case lose OP? Reply with quote

Yow, that must be it!

The weird thing is that it didn't manifest the problem right away. It's as if the cam bores wore out quickly after the rebuild. Does the camshaft have excessive runout?
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1996 Subaru OBW (EJ22, 5-speed, AWD) -- winter car, 3-seasons "don't feel like biking today" car

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&Dan
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Where can a 40-horse case lose OP? Reply with quote

No, dial indicator sez it's within limits and there appeared to be no recent wear in the bores, but get this: the cam gear bolts were loose-ish. Gee whiz! Hafta check everything, I guess. My bad, I should have done that, new cam and all. Assume nothing.
Anyway, once I get the dumb case to the machinist 220 miles to the NW and back again [the WVA shop that did the previous work on the case was not set up to do cam bearing retrofit] we'll see if that solves the problem. Thanks for your input!
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Where can a 40-horse case lose OP? Reply with quote

Absolutely. My brother and I are going through an old 40HP, and I'm steeping myself in all of the things that can go wrong in an engine. Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Where can a 40-horse case lose OP? Reply with quote

Add this to the list! Hope you have better luck w/ your 40.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:46 am    Post subject: Re: Where can a 40-horse case lose OP? Reply with quote

Follow-up: Yep, that did the trick, it seems. Ran the reassembled motor on the test stand for a good long time and idle OP 20 PSI, climbing to 45+ PSI with a few RPMs. 15W40. About damn time!

So: 40 horse- Retrofit cam bearings or GTFO.
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Jacks
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:47 am    Post subject: Re: Where can a 40-horse case lose OP? Reply with quote

Well done Cool
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:55 am    Post subject: Re: Where can a 40-horse case lose OP? Reply with quote

Jacks wrote:
Well done Cool


Gracias. Boy, this motor better start crapping me Tiffany cufflinks in gratitude, I'll tellya what.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:04 am    Post subject: Re: Where can a 40-horse case lose OP? Reply with quote

Always good to see a happy conclusion to the story. Applause
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1967 Beetle -- spring/summer/fall driver
1996 Subaru OBW (EJ22, 5-speed, AWD) -- winter car, 3-seasons "don't feel like biking today" car

049 > 070 > 053 > 009
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&Dan
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:32 am    Post subject: Re: Where can a 40-horse case lose OP? Reply with quote

I believe MoFoCo is set up to address the same issue in your brother's 40-horse should you desire to be proactive. Apart from less HP and displacement there's no reason a person shouldn't run one of these old codgers in an appropriate Beetle or Ghia. They get pretty good mileage, the 1200 in my '61 has been giving well over 35. Good luck with that engine.
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